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SimiRon Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2012 Posts: 46 Location: Simi Valley
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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:47 pm Post subject: Gas heater exhaust pipe |
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I've been looking for a gas heater exhaust pipe as the one on my 1971 411 wagon is missing. The owner of the local muffler shop said he can fabricate one but he needs to know where the rear attach point is. He test fit a 1 1/2 inch pipe into the end of the heater and it fit. Does anyone have a good description or a photo of the rear attach point that might be helpful? Thank you. _________________ '78 ASI Riviera Camper
'64 Deluxe Bug
'65 Delux Bug |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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There are two attachment points only. You need to get this right or there will be problems with the heater.
Its cold as hell here and the back end of the car is in the garage and very hard to reach. I will see if I can get pictures.
The attachment points are not your big worry..
Attachment points:
1. To the heater outlet itself. The exhaust pipe is A thin gauge. It is split so it slips over the nozzle on the heater unit and has a tack welded on C ring clamp with a 8mm bolt/13mm head to cinch it up (going off memory so it may be a 6mm with a 10mm head. I will find out). If you get too haevay handed it crushes the heater outer pipe. Too loose and it falls off.
2. Only one more. There is a loop/strap of steel about .070" thick down near the end of the pipe. It has a hole that goes onto a 6mm vertical stud that protrudes from under the fender just a few inches from where the engine exhaust pipe dumps out on the right hand side of the car. I would be surprised if its missing. take a look down there.
MOST IMPORTANT!!!!
The heater pipe itself has a venturi about 1.5" downstream of the outlet clamp on the heater. This is basically a swell or restriction with a slot cut all the way through the metal...yes...slots into the exhaust stream.
You must have this. It pulls air into the pipe and mixes with the exhaust to be sure that fuel from a miss start does not hang around in the pipe and combust.
It should be easy to duplicate. Wait and we will get pictures. Ray |
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SimiRon Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2012 Posts: 46 Location: Simi Valley
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Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Ray. I'll wait. Glad I posted the question. These gas heaters are scary if you you don't get it right. _________________ '78 ASI Riviera Camper
'64 Deluxe Bug
'65 Delux Bug |
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Lahti411 Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005 Posts: 223 Location: Lahti, Finland
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Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:56 am Post subject: |
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I ordered these from a local metal shop:
They are made of stainless steel so should last forever. _________________ My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:29 am Post subject: |
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Nice job on the venturi slots as well! Ray |
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SimiRon Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2012 Posts: 46 Location: Simi Valley
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Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:00 am Post subject: |
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Perfect! Thank you. Now I just have to find the mounting point. This gives me a good clue on where to start. _________________ '78 ASI Riviera Camper
'64 Deluxe Bug
'65 Delux Bug |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:06 am Post subject: |
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Yes....those are nice pictures. Do you see the heater end? It should not be hard for a muffler shop to make. Use a tail pipe expander to expand the end and then slip in a 90° elbow. Give it about the same amount of in/out space as the expanded gap around the elbow.....and then give it 4 spot welds.
That part is just like the venturi around your hot water heater outlet pipe. Ray |
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hulken Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2009 Posts: 92 Location: Norway
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Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:08 am Post subject: |
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Lahti411 wrote: |
I ordered these from a local metal shop:
They are made of stainless steel so should last forever. |
On your 71 411 wagon or your 412 4-door??? |
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Lahti411 Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005 Posts: 223 Location: Lahti, Finland
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Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:11 am Post subject: |
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It fits both cars. There were atleast three (maybe even four) different types of the heater exhaust pipe. I believe only the early sedan exhaust pipe won't fit together with the Variant/Wagon models original muffler/exit pipe combo. The original Wagon models tail pipe exit was on the right side of the car as the cabin fresh air is taken from the left side. This is why the wagon models heater exhaust had a 90 degree bend at the end section of the pipe. Sedan models had the the engines' exhaust exit on the left and the heater exhaust pipe was longer and straight. In the earliest sedan models ('68/'69) the heater pipe was so long that it reached behind the rear walance. _________________ My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:59 am Post subject: |
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In North America....all type 4 cars except as you noted....the eary models (which are gray market cars here)....had exhaust exit on the right hand side from the factory. Both damper style center exit and end exit exhausts were on the right in North America.
I have no idea why this was different from Europe. The heater exhaust Diagram in my parts book shows it as you mention.....on the left. However the exit end of the pipe fitment stud is installed from the factory on the right on every car I have ever seen here.
These little odd details are some of the wierd mysteries of type 4 cars. Ray |
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Type4ever Samba Member
Joined: November 08, 2011 Posts: 47 Location: Veghel the Netherlands
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Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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There are no mysteries, Ray.
You have 2 Different exhaust fot the heaters. Ending sideways means Limo Ending back means Variant. Muffler on Variant must be left!!!! Both because of the air which becomes back in the car. |
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Type4ever Samba Member
Joined: November 08, 2011 Posts: 47 Location: Veghel the Netherlands
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Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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The stainless steel ones above are only for the Variant. |
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hulken Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2009 Posts: 92 Location: Norway
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Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Have you tried it on your 2-door Lathi411? Since there seems to be different opinions I would like to be 100% sure before I order one. Do you sell it, or the shop that makes them? |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Type4ever wrote: |
There are no mysteries, Ray.
You have 2 Different exhaust fot the heaters. Ending sideways means Limo Ending back means Variant. Muffler on Variant must be left!!!! Both because of the air which becomes back in the car. |
No, sir. All north american 411 and 412 used a right hand muffler exit. I have personally owned and driven 4 door, 2 door and varients from 1972, 1973 and 1974....everythingavailable here except 1971....never owned one but worked on numerous. ..and have worked extensively on over 100 type 4 vehicles.
All of them have the same heater unit and right hand tailpipe exit in the US. Ray
EDIT: from the August 1972 VW parts list and production survey:
There are two part #s used in primary production. From the diagram (I will post in the am)
Part figure 44 :
411 261 603 A only used TO chassis # 411 2100 000 . That is until July 1971
Part figure 45:
461 261 603 Used FROM chassis # 412 2000 001 which is after july of 1971. It lists this as all after july of 1971 to August of 1972 which was the start of 1973 model year and 412 models.
The early part number is not listed as being used at all on anything later than July of 1971 and the later part # is listed for all Chassis after July of 1971.
The 461 prefix marks it as origijally designed for a variant.....but that is only a part #. There are numerous 461 prefix parts used in sedans and vice versa.
Ray |
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SimiRon Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2012 Posts: 46 Location: Simi Valley
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Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone have a photo of the stud that holds the rear end of the pipe? _________________ '78 ASI Riviera Camper
'64 Deluxe Bug
'65 Delux Bug |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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SimiRon wrote: |
Does anyone have a photo of the stud that holds the rear end of the pipe? |
I am betting you still have it unless it broke off. I will try to get a pic in the am but it will becbelow 0 in the garage until at least noon.
Go to your right rear fender. On the rear most section on the very bottom lower edge about 4" forward of the bolt on slotted grill that covers the muffler.....there is at least one 10mm bolt that hold the bottom of the fender. It is right next to that.
If the bolt is gone.....there will either be a hole or a broken off bolt. Its vertical. It used a round wing nut. Ray |
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Lahti411 Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005 Posts: 223 Location: Lahti, Finland
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Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:53 am Post subject: |
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The stainless pipe is in fact one of the sedan-style pipes. I have to take some pics for you guys... It fits very well to my Variant also and i have test fitted it to my sedan and the fit was great. My 4-door sedan is in a storage 60 miles from where i live so i cannot take pics of it now. But my Variant sits right there next to the building i live so i'll take some pics.
I found an M-code from my parts catalogue when i wanted to check which heater pipe went to which model and was surprised to notice that in fact it's exactly how Ray described: M 554 is an Export -package and it includes a right hand exit for the engines tail pipe!
I broke the heater tail pipe attaching stud when i was installing the pipe. But with a little tinkering i made a new attaching point which works fine. If you are not doing a 100 point restoration the attaching stud is not a big problem. You will realize where the exhaust pipe is supposed to attach when you test fit it. _________________ My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
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Lahti411 Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005 Posts: 223 Location: Lahti, Finland
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Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:12 am Post subject: |
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I compared my own broschures, parts catalogues and dealer educational material with material i found from the net. There are some oddidities in some broschures you can find from thesamba and other places in the net but most of those are because of very early bublishing dates of the material and the cars that were used in the photosoots were pre-production cars or even prototypes.
Here's what i have understood about the heater exhaust pipes:
The first modeal year 1969 was available only as 2 and 4 door sedan. It had an engine exhaust exit on the left (through the valance) and a very long heater exhaust pipe:
Model year 1970 both Sedan and Variant (wagon) had engine exhaust on the left and a short heater exhaust pipe that was tucked under the rear fender. The heater exhaust pipe had an aluminium tip and it was too long to fit with a right hand side engine exhaust pipe:
Model year 1971 and 1972 sedan and Variant models had different engine exhaust pipes and different heater exhaust pipes. The heater exhaust on the Sedan was as seen earlier: straight and tucked under the fender while the Variant had a bent end that sat next to the engine exhaust pipe:
1973 sedan and Variant models used different engine exhaust pipes but the same heater pipe was used on both versions. This is the same pipe as used only on Variants earlier:
Later cars had again a new version of the heater exhaust pipe. This one was bent 90 degrees to the right. I think this version fits all models and was propably VW's attempt to get rid of too many versions of the exhaust pipes. In my opinion this would be the ideal version to reproduce:
_________________ My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan
Last edited by Lahti411 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Lahti411 Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005 Posts: 223 Location: Lahti, Finland
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Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:19 am Post subject: |
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And this is what i have in my car. It is the version that is tucked under the rear fender.
It fits well with the original engine exhaust system without the aluminium tip. But there's no room foor the tip unfotunately. Ofcourse the heater pie could be cut slightly shorter if you want to use the original aluminium tip. _________________ My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
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Lahti411 Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005 Posts: 223 Location: Lahti, Finland
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Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Double post, sorry _________________ My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan
Last edited by Lahti411 on Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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