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TNWheelsNow
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Joined: March 15, 2014
Posts: 7
Location: Knoxville TN
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 Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 2:31 am Post subject: Buying a 412--what to look for, and do I want to? |
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I have my eye on a 74 412 Wagon. I'm looking at this as a daily driver. I have owned Beetles before, and know what to look for on them if I'm buying, but what should I look for on a T-IV that would make me walk away?
Also, are these cars "worth having?" How much of a nightmare is it to keep them on the road? |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:54 am Post subject: |
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If you are looking for a simple fix-it-up......walk away.
I like these cars FAR, FAR, FAR......more than beetles, type 3 or buses.
I drove mine as a daily driver while, covering 13 states for work from 1993 to 1998. I averaged about 1000 miles per week and sometimes more.
In one respect its not any more maintenance that a beetle or type 3...and even a little less than the other types in some areas. It also has much, much less heat related and hot weather issues than the same type of engine in a bus (which just kills engines)....and is much more reliable than any type 1 based engine...and cruises at 70+ mph all, day long.
Drive quality wise.....there is nothing in the aircooled line up like it. Its much more comfortable, it handles better, it has good heat.
All of that being said.....when I took on my 2nd 3rd and 4th type 4 cars within that five year period and beyond (I did not change vehicles because they wore out....I got in accidents).....I came from a base of having already had a 411 as my first car ....which I drive through highschool and a year of college before getting T-boned. ...
....on which I learned all the painful lessions of owning a type 4.
I got that first 411 in 1978. By 1980 a large range of parts were already virtually impossible to get....especially anything body related.
Skip 10 years up the line and im drivjng a four door 1973 412. They stopped making frint and rear shocks in 1986 or 87. Front end bushings like sway bar, radius arm and control arm bushings were no longer available at the dealer and were never available at anywhere but the dealer.
As the first stage of obsolescence for thess vehicles...VW shipped virtually all parts back to Germany and being listed in the US as NLA.....they updated order lists and microfiche to not have the ability to order them.
So.....my next 3 type 4s was a years long excercise of either replacing suspension and body parts that wore out over the long miles from junkyards, finding other new parts that could be modified and used...and making things like bushings from scratch.
In your case....there will not be the large array of usable parts available from the junkyard. What little is still available will be largely shot (in the case of soft parts and plastic).
The master cylinders became NLA largely in the mid 90s except for NOS which with the internet....come up quite a bit.....but are largely junk because of age.....but you can rebuild yours using seals from type 3 kits.....rear shocks we now have a cross match number for.....front bushings you will have to have made but we have dimensions and materials for and its not expensive......the ball joints....are rare NOS only....but I have a solution that is nearly ready to launch......we have a strut rebuild system using Audi 4000 strut catridges that is a 200% improvement.....but requires some fabrication and machine work.......all of these fixes are much more reliable mileage and function wise than the stock parts that are NLA.
Glass and window gaskets are NLA.....but we at least have a work around to use late bus gaskets for the front and back windshields. ...and I am working on the others.
My advice is that I have not seen ANY.....not ONE.....411 or 412 sold as used that was anywhere close to being in a daily, driver condition that wears out par5s you cannot easily replace.......without needing extensive work.
Typically 100% of these cars need a complete front suspension rebuild.....if you tools and light fabricating ability and patience......the front end rebuil cancbe done for $500 or less.
You need to do the brakes.....about $250 to 300 by rebuildjng your MC and calipers.....all else is new.
if its not running....plan on $3-4,000 for a decent properly done reliable engine. I would rebuipd the automatic trans NOW....because certain parts are getting scarce but are all available.....and.....at this age ALL of these automatics require at minimu new seals (which can destroy the unit in minutes of one certain seal fails....and there was a factory bulletin to change at 70k miles)....and all of them need main pressure adjustments at this age.
My warning.....you cannot pick up these vehicles in basic driving condition and think that you will do a rolling restoration driving it regularly....and replacing parts as you get to them. This is not a beetle, bus or type 3.
The risk is really only in the front suspension. Ball joints are rare. You WILL need them. The rrknt suspension on these cars is very long and generates high leverage. If the bushings are shot....and you, can be sure they are.....the leverage begins to detsroy the centerlink, ball joints and strut bushings.....and little parts that are just as hard to find as ball joints....as you drive.
Plan to get the car....AND DO NOT DRIVE IT AT ALL.....until the front end had been done, the engine gone through and checked and at minimum new mid section seals on the transmission. ....which is maybe $30 and 4 hours work......or this car will be a heartbreaker.
These are the best VWs to drive for daily drivers.....but you need to be serious about it and be up front on what you do for preemptive maintenance.....or you will be down a lot and waiting long periods because there are no parts at the store for you except basic engine and brake tune up parts. Ray |
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Mike Fisher
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Joined: January 30, 2006
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Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:53 am Post subject: |
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If I liked it I would buy it knowing I could keep it running in original condition with new/used parts. I buy them to drive, not tear apart & replace everything like some! 
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| If I liked it I would buy it knowing I could keep it running in original condition with new/used parts. I buy them to drive, not tear apart & replace everything like some! |
Then obviously you have not driven one absolutely daily....and to qualify that....you could not have driven it very many miles or else you would know the issues.
The question remains....where are you going to get these supposed good usable USED parts to replace items like the control arm bushings and rear trailing arm bushings?
They were a defective design in the front end with no fore and aft side flanges. Every one I have ever seen failed by sliding forward to wear on the subframe and change your alignment....between 30-50K miles.
Where do you think you are getting the centering ring for the radius arms and the the radius arm donuts? The centering rings I have never found an example of in the junkyard because ....they made them of the wrong plastic and they disintegrate with heat and humidity. They were never available new except special order.
Where are you getting the good used centerlink? All of them were defective with the wrong nylon inside.
Hey...I have have three of them brand factory new..TRW...in boxes. I cut one open last summer to verify ...and guess what...the nylon turned to powder.
I will sell you the other two at market price for $89 each. You will need both to get you a total of 30K miles before your ball joints start wearing because of excess motion.
Where are you going to get these good USED ball joints?
I know places where you can get NOS ones ....outside of me...I have 4 full sets on the shelf now...never been installed.
Still in boxes.....and all unusable because the 45 year old boots have rotted off........not saying any of the other 45 old joints wouldn't be in the same condition.
But hey...you seem to have a line on these things....so it should be no problem. 
My point for daily driving is not to make these cars museum perfect....but there is not one single front suspension relationship these cars have in common with any other ACVW ever built.....not even the superbeetle with struts.
The day you disassemble the front end and carefully measure what you have....you will realize the issues and there are several.
Just hopping in and driving these cars...especially if its your most important form of transportation.....when you have not upgraded several items....will do nothing at all except destroy other parts attached to that......that you have no ready source for.
If the previous poster owns basic hand tools and even a benchtop drill press and a basic vise......he can make the control arm bushings, the radius arm bushings, the radius arm centering rings, rebuild the centerlink with bronze bushings and replace the defective factory idler arm bushing .....for about $150 in parts and about 3-5 days of labor or less.
And since neither of us have a source for ball joints....it would be stupid not to rebuild the centerlink....and do the strut mod (because struts cartridges are not available at all).....because those two parts are the primary killers of ball joints.
Yeah...buy it...drive it.....but do the basics first. These are 40 year old cars and some of the first mass produced example of McPherson strut suspension. There were a handful of small material defects and a couple of design issues. All solvable.
Over the past 30 years there has been no end to the amount of owners I have met who thought these cars looked cool....bought one used and tried to do the "rolling resto" thing.....and have ended up selling the cars because they could not keep up with the constant breakage and down time from items that defy logic (normal ACVW logic...which this car is not) of why they broke or got out of them by wrecking them or breaking something they could not replace like a subframe eye-socket.....which will happen without centering rings....so they scrapped the car.
Ray |
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bradself
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Joined: January 13, 2013
Posts: 167
Location: SF, CA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Raymond!!
You forgot to mention DJet/LJet love. Lots and lots of DJet/LJet love.
And, to the original poster, I will concur with Ray, doing a rolling resto with only street parking and a very occasional borrowed driveway has taken at least 7 years off my life. If you don't have an indoor place of your own to park it and months to bring it up to snuff, which can be pretty heroic, forget it. If you do, as well as patience, go for it. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| bradself wrote: |
Raymond!!
You forgot to mention DJet/LJet love. Lots and lots of DJet/LJet love.
And, to the original poster, I will concur with Ray, doing a rolling resto with only street parking and a very occasional borrowed driveway has taken at least 7 years off my life. If you don't have an indoor place of your own to park it and months to bring it up to snuff, which can be pretty heroic, forget it. If you do, as well as patience, go for it. |
Amen to that!.....not trying to put anyone off buykng one of these cars. They are awesome!
But please know what you are getting into. So many people jump into these cars thinking it, will be just like the rolling restoration that did on a bug or bus.
Its very far different from that......and we lose a lot of these vehicles that way. The owner has to give up for cost, and sanity....it sits around until the wife or the city make you have to mkve it fast.....and those of us who live and breathe these things cant, always take a project on or strip for parts due to distance, space, short notice or money.....and the cars go to the crusher. Ray |
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TNWheelsNow
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Joined: March 15, 2014
Posts: 7
Location: Knoxville TN
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks to all of you for your comments.
I have heard about the problems with the steering/suspension with these cars and that parts are rare as hen's teeth. It's a shame that no one provides any options for parts. Aftermarket parts will be made every day until a hundred years after I'm dead, I think.
My dad had a 71 411 four door when I was in Jr. high, it was a spare car but it had a lot of bells and whistles on it, even had working AC. My grandfather owned several beetles, T3s and a Ghia. It was obvious that the 411 was just a much better car. It was going to be my car when I turned 16, but the thing had some bad rust problems. Then one of my relatives borrowed it and somehow managed to knock a hole in the gas tank. It got parked, somewhat parted, and eventually hauled away to the crusher. So I would up getting an AMC Gremlin for $175 and drove it until I graduated. I still have not recovered from the trauma from that. Maybe nostalgia more than reason is driving me here.
It is strange that probably the ultimate in the aircooled car from VW is such an orphan. Darned shame, but I think I'd be better looking for a decent T3.
Thanks again. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| TNWheelsNow wrote: |
Thanks to all of you for your comments.
I have heard about the problems with the steering/suspension with these cars and that parts are rare as hen's teeth. It's a shame that no one provides any options for parts. Aftermarket parts will be made every day until a hundred years after I'm dead, I think.
My dad had a 71 411 four door when I was in Jr. high, it was a spare car but it had a lot of bells and whistles on it, even had working AC. My grandfather owned several beetles, T3s and a Ghia. It was obvious that the 411 was just a much better car. It was going to be my car when I turned 16, but the thing had some bad rust problems. Then one of my relatives borrowed it and somehow managed to knock a hole in the gas tank. It got parked, somewhat parted, and eventually hauled away to the crusher. So I would up getting an AMC Gremlin for $175 and drove it until I graduated. I still have not recovered from the trauma from that. Maybe nostalgia more than reason is driving me here.
It is strange that probably the ultimate in the aircooled car from VW is such an orphan. Darned shame, but I think I'd be better looking for a decent T3.
Thanks again. |
Now bear in mind....if you read what we wrote carefully.....we have excellent solutions for all of the suspension parts...better than factory in fact...and less than the same factory parts would cost you NoS.
Type 3's arnt simple either...just more of it available off the shelf with no fabricating...but just working on a type 3 will cost and take fabricating.
The biggest immediate difference is that if the type 3 runs now...its a simpler car to do a rolling resto with.. Ray |
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SimiRon
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Joined: December 30, 2012
Posts: 46
Location: Simi Valley
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with everything Ray said. I've owned lot of bugs, and a couple of buses over the last 35+ years and have done many rolling restorations. Very easy with a bug or bus. I acquired a 411 last July and just got it on the road in February after going through everything from front to back, including front suspension, brakes, transmission, engine, axles, wheel bearings, and seat upholstery. While engine parts are easy to find, the rest of the car has been challenging. I must admit, the car is very comfortable to drive now that it's mechanically like new.
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mikeyboy_85
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Joined: March 08, 2004
Posts: 59
Location: Victoria Australia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:40 am Post subject: 411 parts |
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I have been looking and looking for 411 parts and i have found a place in the UK that has original VW stock for 411 the place has been open since the late 60's, They have front suspension bits and many brake parts including master cylinder rebuild kits, they are in the middle of moving at the moment and will be open again in 8 weeks. He told me that he has front and rear shocks and some rubber for the front end. if anyone wants their number just message me.
I would prefer to keep the number to myself till i get all the bits i have ordered from him and make sure they are all genuine VW parts.
TNWheelsNow the 411/412 is by far the best Aircooled VW it is quiet, quick and truly relaxing to drive with smooth suspesion unlike any beetle or type 3. I have had 15 other VWs in the past plus a 1.7 914 which shares the same engine but i do feel that the 411 is the nicest, saying that it is not the prettiest VW at all. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:40 am Post subject: Re: 411 parts |
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| mikeyboy_85 wrote: |
I have been looking and looking for 411 parts and i have found a place in the UK that has original VW stock for 411 the place has been open since the late 60's, They have front suspension bits and many brake parts including master cylinder rebuild kits, they are in the middle of moving at the moment and will be open again in 8 weeks. He told me that he has front and rear shocks and some rubber for the front end. if anyone wants their number just message me.
I would prefer to keep the number to myself till i get all the bits i have ordered from him and make sure they are all genuine VW parts.
TNWheelsNow the 411/412 is by far the best Aircooled VW it is quiet, quick and truly relaxing to drive with smooth suspesion unlike any beetle or type 3. I have had 15 other VWs in the past plus a 1.7 914 which shares the same engine but i do feel that the 411 is the nicest, saying that it is not the prettiest VW at all. |
Thanks!
Just be aware that NOS shocks are usually a very bad deal. Typically the shelf life is only about 2-3 years. Without exercise and use the natural aging process of the rubber seals causes them to harden.
While they are in use this is not an issue. But when they are unused the seals take a set shape. Typically you only get about 10k miles from them before they are shot.
Its worth it to mention that i dound an exact crossmatch number for the rear. I think its probably listed in the stickies above. Its a FRONT shock for a Ford Econoline 1/2 ton commercial van.
I got the crossmatch from an early 90s KYB catalog. The only difference is the bushing tube at the bottom bolt eye has a full length tube on the 411/412 and is narrower on the Ford shock. Use a couple of spacers on each side and you are done. If for some reason you need a little more load capacity you can use the shock from the 3/4 ton as well.
NOS brake master cylinders are suspect for the same reasons as the shocks.....but NOS seal rebuild kits I have had no problems with since they are not captive in the cylinder as they age.
Ray |
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mikeyboy_85
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Joined: March 08, 2004
Posts: 59
Location: Victoria Australia
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:37 am Post subject: |
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well we will see how the parts are when they arrive.
I wish people would not make the 411/412 seem like its a car that should be put in the to hard basket cause it really isn't to hard to figure out and would love to see more back on the road than we have currently. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| mikeyboy_85 wrote: |
well we will see how the parts are when they arrive.
I wish people would not make the 411/412 seem like its a car that should be put in the to hard basket cause it really isn't to hard to figure out and would love to see more back on the road than we have currently. |
You are really right....Its not hard to figure out.....but just to be clear....thats not why most of us issue these warnings....I mean we are not trying to make this out as hard.
The problem is that there are almost "0" available parts for these cars. Some of the few that are available ...as mentioned......should not be used at all.
The stock oil strut for instance....was phenomenally well built. ...and sadly very poorly valved. As it gets close to the end of its lifespan (which can happen quick if there are any installation or damage issues).....its lack of rebound control gets worse. This destroys the strut bearings and ball joints, like clockwork.
The stock oil struts have no rubber parts of significance. However if you find some of those....and you cant get the EXACT hydraulic fluid with the EXACT fluid volume dose....the factory strut will destroy itself in short order.
Overcharge of fluid blows out the top circuit seal losing 75% of the fluid in about 50 miles.....which overheats and scores the unit. Wrong viscosity does the same and will destroy the main orifice plate in the bottom circuit.
Been there....done that long ago. Wasted hundreds on factory NOS units and could no longer get the oil or any specs on it from VW.
The aftermarket strut cartridges have the same poor rebound valving issue as factory but a short lifespan on the shelf. Wasted a few hundred on those before I learned as well.
The most important parts of the front suspension.....that keep you from destroying other parts in short order.....are not obtainable. Quality balljoints are not obtainable...except NOS which is few and far between and have 40 year old boots of an odd size by now. All but one f the front end bushings are not obtainable.....and bear in mind that, those that you may find are pushing 45 years old.
Fabricating better than factory replacements for these parts....is really pretty simple....IF you know what to fabricate and are willing to take the time to do this BEFORE you, start driving it....and destroying parts you cannot replace.
You need to add to this.....the fact that there are four known defects in design in the front, end of the 411/412 .....one is strut valving, the other is minor and exacerbated by the strut valving and thats the bonded bushing of the middle years, another is the incorrect plastic alloy in the centerlink, another is the defective design and material of the idler arm bushing....and a 5th but minor defect is the lack of end flanges on the control arm, bushings. These lead to destruction of the radius arm bushings and centering, rings.
Yes....I agree....I would like to see more on the road.....but the sad part is that a bug chunk of the people who "discover" and get into 411 and 412....are in a hurry. Itching to drive it, very little printed information available....even less parts available. ....and most of these people end up dismayed that they have to fabricate parts to make a daily, driver or are disheartened that they can never really get them to drive smoothly and reliably (without fabrication).....
So the sad fact is that usually after a year or less....these fair weather owner cars get parted out or scrapped.
I warn people to be serious about these cars. if its just your "next project" or flavor of the month vw and you dont really care whether you keep it long term or not......for the most part....these types of owners dont put any more cars on the road.....and typically eventually get more of them scrapped.
Its not that the parts fabrication is hard at all......its that these types of owners do not research the parts availability issue...before they buy the car.
Then...they are amazed that we were not kidding that you NEED to do certain things BEFORE you can drive significant miles and that parts ARE NOT going to be found on the shelves of your favorite restoration houses or vendors....and your Google skills....will largely not help you.
But....for the most part....as a group...we have found really good methods to replace virtually everything in the suspension. Just that these parts are not for sale.....the materials are...but you have to do some fabbing.
And.....you cant say we dont try like hell to provide every solution these potential new owners could need to safely keep these cars driving.....but the sad part is that most potential new 411/412 owners of late dont seem to have the drive, desire, skills, money or time to use the solutions offered by those of us who have been working on these cars for decades....both here and on the STF forums and a few other places. Ray |
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mikeyboy_85
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Joined: March 08, 2004
Posts: 59
Location: Victoria Australia
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:45 am Post subject: sticky |
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i think that we need to have more sticky forums in this category to show all the new 411/412 owners the tech articles and how to fix the common issues with the type 4, and make sure all those posts have very clear well illustrated instructions on how to fix those issues.
and another thing that would be great is if we could start a 411/412 registry so we know how many are left etc....
Cheers Michael |
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:45 am Post subject: |
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Excellent idea and I agree 100%. This is also why I am spending so much time on the "how-to" documents I am working on. The driveline adjustment document went in a week ago.
I just got the last material in for my struts yesterday. I will be installing today, last assembly and any paint touch-up tomorrow and any missing photos while this is happening.
I will be adding segments to these documents as I go.....like specific new mods as compared to jist stock refurbishment. For example I will add a how-to segment to the driveline adjustment for how to make a new tunnel plug/bushing that is adjustable and how to lock the ball stud coupling once you have the car adjusted.....and how to make a much better thab, stock tail cone bushing and upper hanger bushings.
The strut mod document also has numerous variations of how to make different parts.
I already have pictures done for the centerlink rebuild, idler arm bushing replacement and refurb and delrin ccontrol arm bushing refurb as well as tie rod rebuilding, ball joints, radius arms and castor adjustment mod for sub frame. Its possible these will all be done by mid summer.
Ray |
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