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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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There are millions of buses that traveled hundreds of millions of miles without a CV coming loose. The culprit may be buying other then Lobro CV joints, that or a bad batch of bolts. Were they allen head or star head?
BAP Geon used to be a good line, however I don't know where they get their current inventory from. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Brian Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012 Posts: 8340 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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I've been told many times; torque the bolts, check after a few hundred and if none are loose, forget they exist. _________________ Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper
Only losers litter |
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carlvon Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2015 Posts: 93 Location: San Antonio, TX
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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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cmonSTART wrote: |
Excuse the noob while he goes and checks something...
Thanks for sharing. |
Glad to help.
It's also a good idea to check the torque of your wheel nuts periodically if that's not on your maintenance schedule. _________________ Carl
1978 Champagne Edition II 2L FI |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21510 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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I have used Nordlock on a wide range of equipment. They are identical in every function to Schnoor.....just a different form to get around patents...and they cost quite a bit more. 0 adb advantage.
Just use the correct schnoor washer and use a new one each time. I buy them by bags of 100 for under $12 a bag.
They are hardened ....and they come in specific thicknesses for correct torque ranges. You can get them so thick that the torque required to activate the bellville effect can literally, snap a CV bolt before you can apply enough torque to deflect the bellville washer.
CV joint kits long ago used to come with new bolts, plates and schnoor washers.
I have never had one fail. The Norlock washers are no different than Schnoor. They are both hardened, serrated both sides and are bellville washers using a combination of "tension" and metal bite to lock instead of thread friction alone.
Dont fall for the " Nordlock uses a double bellville method"...line of sales BS. The amount of tension for bolt type and diameter is specified.....and is what decides what thickness of bellville washer you use.....and how much tension it has.
So unless Nordlock washer pairs have excessive tension....which I know they dont.....that means each half provides 50% of the required tension.
In that respect.....it means it has no more tension than a Schnoor washer....and they are both hardened....and both have serrations top and bottom side.
If the serrations against the CV joint locking plate fail to bite on either a Schnoor or a Nordlock....the bolt Can still spin if the bellville tension is incorrect.
If the serrations against the bolt head fail to bite on either a schnoor or a Nordlock and the bellville tension is incorrect.....the bolt can still turn.
The knly way the Bellville tension can be incorrect....is if you reuse a used washer or buy the wrong thickness washer.......or the washers provided are the wrong material. They make them in hardened steel, 18-8 and 316 stainless..which is not for this application and zinc plate...which is also not for this application.
Trust me.....the locking function on the Nordlock is 100% worthless is any of the above have been done...ie....meaning reusing a washer or using the wrong one.
If you abide by those rules...the schnoor washers never fail. I mjust, saying dont waste your money. Ray |
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PITApan Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2014 Posts: 1058 Location: Northern Colorado
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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Carl, Your knowledge of some simple (I think) engineering leaves you at the mercy of the marketers. I cannot help. I'm sorry.
I do suggest you check your torque wrenches and techniques. Your failure might have been nothing more than you thought you got correct torque on them but in reality it was too little. There are a number of causes of this. Wouldn't be the first time it's happened.
The reason I suggest this, aside from the fact it does happen, is your comment about always lubricating the threads of fasteners. Nothing could be farther from the truth and a great many threads are specified to be assembled bone dry. It is a specification that is usually called out. That you do not know this reveals something about the depth of your mechanical experience. So I say, without any intent to insult or belittle you, and I think it might sting some, but double check your tools and methods. If there is an error there you will get bitten again and again. I'd rather risk some hurt feelings than abandon you to that fate. |
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PITApan Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2014 Posts: 1058 Location: Northern Colorado
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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Brian wrote: |
I've been told many times; torque the bolts, check after a few hundred and if none are loose, forget they exist. |
Now riddle me this, how do you keep the crap out of the recesses in the heads? Is there some trick? Duct tape? |
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TomWesty Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2007 Posts: 3482 Location: Wyoming,USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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cmonSTART wrote: |
Excuse the noob while he goes and checks something...
Thanks for sharing. |
Thanks for the laugh! _________________ If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
Visit: www.tomcoryell.com and check out my music! |
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Brian Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012 Posts: 8340 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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PITApan wrote: |
Now riddle me this, how do you keep the crap out of the recesses in the heads? Is there some trick? Duct tape? |
I was going to switch to drilled bolts, do the wire trick on them. Easier to blow them out. Though duct tape wouldn't be a bad idea. _________________ Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper
Only losers litter |
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boothead Samba Member
Joined: January 12, 2015 Posts: 5 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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An interesting PowerPoint presentation from Schnorr:
http://www.schnorr.com/downloads/technical-informa...al-en.html
According to Schnorr, Nord Lock and Schnorr serrated lock washers perform about the same (Schnorr says theirs are slightly better than Nord Lock--would you expect them to say anything else?). Both Schnorr and Nord Lock WAY out-perform other types of lock washers. Take a look at the wave washer results on the graph, maybe we would be better off with flat washers vs wave washers?
Or maybe no washer (vs spring washers):
http://www.boltscience.com/pages/helicalspringwashers.htm
In any case, even Schnorr acknowledges that Nord Lock washers are a viable alternative for lock washers. More expensive perhaps, but to each his own. |
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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PITApan wrote: |
Brian wrote: |
I've been told many times; torque the bolts, check after a few hundred and if none are loose, forget they exist. |
Now riddle me this, how do you keep the crap out of the recesses in the heads? Is there some trick? Duct tape? |
http://www.mcmaster.com/#bolt-caps/=w55dp6
Good Luck
Tcash |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50336
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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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PITApan wrote: |
Brian wrote: |
I've been told many times; torque the bolts, check after a few hundred and if none are loose, forget they exist. |
Now riddle me this, how do you keep the crap out of the recesses in the heads? Is there some trick? Duct tape? |
Fill the recess with RTV. It will come out easily enough when you want it to. |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12721 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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PITApan wrote: |
Brian wrote: |
I've been told many times; torque the bolts, check after a few hundred and if none are loose, forget they exist. |
Now riddle me this, how do you keep the crap out of the recesses in the heads? Is there some trick? Duct tape? |
Drive in the rain.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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Brian Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012 Posts: 8340 Location: Oceanside
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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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I was thinking playdough would have been okay too. Or a can of degreeser and etc. _________________ Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper
Only losers litter |
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PITApan Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2014 Posts: 1058 Location: Northern Colorado
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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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Brian wrote: |
I was thinking playdough would have been okay too. Or a can of degreeser and etc. |
Plastiline slings out. Playdough shrinks. The RTV option, or maybe plastidip or liquid electrical tape. I like TCs suggestion. McMaster has plastic caps too that are very cheap. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21510 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Tcash wrote: |
PITApan wrote: |
Brian wrote: |
I've been told many times; torque the bolts, check after a few hundred and if none are loose, forget they exist. |
Now riddle me this, how do you keep the crap out of the recesses in the heads? Is there some trick? Duct tape? |
http://www.mcmaster.com/#bolt-caps/=w55dp6
Good Luck
Tcash |
Yep...they work great and even better when held in by a small amount of RTV around the edges to make sure they stay in the triple square units. I have soome but have not used them on my 412 yet.
Will run you $30.48 for 24 of them.
I have also seen these in plastic.
EDIT: ah...found one in my cheat book they have silicone caps that woork well.
http://www.protecplastics.com/?gclid=CM-Vv87Ni8QCFYNFaQodrxQAZQ
Ray |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:22 am Post subject: |
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I just use the "blow" gizmo on my compressed air line to clean out the heads. Carb cleaner also works.
It is a bus man. It was born to be driven. |
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tootype2crazy Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2007 Posts: 1276 Location: St. Louis Missouri
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:42 am Post subject: |
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One might also add to this thread by stating that utter precision must be used when packing and installing the joint. Tape must be put over the holes in the joint while it is packed so that no grease gets in the holes. The mating surfaces must be totally clean. Absolutely no grease can get on the bolts as they are going in. The grease is moly meaning it contains solids, and as I understand it if it gets on the mating surfaces or threads it can distort torque readings and cause things to loosen up later. _________________ air-cooled or nothing for me
1978 Sunroof Deluxe Bus (daily driver)
1978 Transporter (mom's, making into a camper)
1970 Single Cab 2.1 turbo/EFI 6 Rib, 78 front beam, vanagon backing plates on rear (project)
2001 GTI VR6 (wife's) |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21510 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:06 am Post subject: |
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tootype2crazy wrote: |
One might also add to this thread by stating that utter precision must be used when packing and installing the joint. Tape must be put over the holes in the joint while it is packed so that no grease gets in the holes. The mating surfaces must be totally clean. Absolutely no grease can get on the bolts as they are going in. The grease is moly meaning it contains solids, and as I understand it if it gets on the mating surfaces or threads it can distort torque readings and cause things to loosen up later. |
Absolutely correct. I went through this same argument last years. Oil changes torque...grease changes it a HUGE amount and grease with anti-friction additives like moly and graphite even worse.
And add to it if the bolt goes into a hole packed with grease the threads are just going too hydroplane if the thread bore is deep enough because after a certain amount of threads and depending on thread fit....the grease cannot escape. It locks up in a hydraulic manner between the threads...meaning little or no thread friction.
I have seen it happen with CVs and I have seen it happen on machines all over the place when an unknowing operator goops up a bolt with grease.
But you will find that most here dont believe this. Ray |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50336
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:36 am Post subject: |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
But you will find that most here dont believe this. Ray |
No I don't believe it, have never seen it and don't believe I ever will. My joint outer races don't move relative to the flange when I torque them to 33 ft*lbs with lubricated threads but they certainly will at lesser torques. If there is no relative movement there is very little chance that the fasteners will come loose or break. If the VW engineers would have wanted the threads to be dry they would have specced the torque that way, which they did not. The VW engineers were smart enough to know that 99% of mechanics are not going to ever bother to clean the threads and specified the torque accordingly.
I always find it interesting that there are way more CV bolt torque threads on the Bay forum than the Vanagon one, even though the CV parts are the same, and the Vanagon weighs more, and it has noticeably more power. This would lead one to believe that maybe the torque spec for the Bay was too low and all the things that people do to try to make up for it don't work as well as tightening the bolts to 33ft*lbs with lubricated threads. VW solved the CV bolt problem back in 1980 when they first built the Vanagon yet Bay Window and other ACVW owners still 35 years later haven't figured out the solution. Lube the bolts, torque them down to 33 ft*lbs and go out for a trouble free drive. |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22639 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:25 am Post subject: |
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PITApan wrote: |
Brian wrote: |
I've been told many times; torque the bolts, check after a few hundred and if none are loose, forget they exist. |
Now riddle me this, how do you keep the crap out of the recesses in the heads? Is there some trick? Duct tape? |
You don't, since you re torque in 200 miles then forget.
On my water cooler car, I filled the strut link torx bolts with grease to keep crap out.
On the grease/no grease controversy, is the torquec spec dry or lubed? _________________ .ssS! |
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