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Mellow Yellow 74
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Joined: October 14, 2014
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Location: Sydney, Australia
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 Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:28 am Post subject: Body Sitting Uneven on Chassis |
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The rear end on my 62 Ghia was sagging and sitting unevenly so I am re-indexing the torsion bars and replacing the spring plate rubbers. My 74 bus had the same problem and I have just done the same to it and it has worked well. I measured up the height of the body above the wheels on each side before starting so I know how much adjustment is required. The car is up on stands under the torsion bar tubes and I have removed the torsion bars and spring plates.
I noticed that the body is sitting unevenly at the back so I though my stands may be a different height, but I have checked and the chassis is sitting level at the back. So this means that the body is sitting unevenly on the chassis at the back. The body does not seem to have accident repair work which could explain why the body is uneven at the back (although who would really know the history over 50 plus years). The rubbers between the body and the chassis near the rear suspension are looking fairly deteriorated but I am not sure this would explain the difference in height between the two sides.
I will re-index the torsion bars so the chassis height is correct but I am not sure how to make the body sit even on the chassis. My questions are as follows:
- is there any way of adjusting the height between the body and the chassis at the rear?
- am I able to replace the rubbers between the body and the chassis near the rear suspension without lifting the body off the pan?
- is there something else I should be looking at which I am not aware of?
Any assistance with this is appreciated.
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1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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motorhead364
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Location: Amarillo Texas
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Just throwing a couple thoughts out
Could the pans be tweak from replacement. Measure the hight from the floor to the outter edge of the pans in multiple places on both sides
Was a rear 1/4 panel replaced and maybe wasn't put on correctly.
How are the door gaps. A wide gap at the rear top of a door could indicate that the body has moved since painting last.
Pics will help us help you as well.
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63 ghia coupe |
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c21darrel
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VeloMikey
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like the torsion housing is bent because the jack stands are at different heights. Check to make sure that it is not broken away from the pan. How much of a difference from side to side?
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Mellow Yellow 74
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Joined: October 14, 2014
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Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:53 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the responses so far.
I have done some more investigating today and the body is level to within 1/4" on each side at the rockers and the rear wheel arch, but then at the back the right hand side is around 1-1/2" lower than the left hand side. The torsion bar tube is level and looks straight so I don't think this is the problem.
I have removed the two rubbers on each side above the rear suspension and they basically fell apart when I removed them (see photo). This probably doesn't help things but the gap between the body and the suspension is about the same so this doesn't seem to be the problem.
The gaps on the left hand door are fairly uniform but on the right hand door the clearance is tight along the bottom and larger at the top rear of the door, but I am not sure if this is a door hinge issue or something else. I plan to remove the body and replace both pans sometime, because the rear half of the floor pans on both sides have had very poor quality patch repairs.
From a visual (see photo), it looks like the whole rear end is twisted clockwise slightly. In the photo the muffler is level (but the pea shooter tubes are not even) so this shows the angle of the body. Could the poor pan replacement job potentially cause the whole body to twist somehow? If not then possibly there has been a poorly done 1/4 panel replacement done in the past. If this is the case I might just have to live with it, because removing and replacing the 1/4 panel is beyond my capabilities and budget.
Maybe I should adjust the torsion bars so the pan is level, then replace the floor pans and see if this fixes the level problem when I replace the body. If it doesn't I could try and pack up the body to pan connection on the right hand side. If this doesn't work maybe I could then adjust the torsion bars so the body is level but the pan isn't.
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1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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c21darrel
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Brassneck
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| c21darrel wrote: |
Is it right hand drive?
Common for the driver side to sit lower just because cars are mostly driven solo.
probably, common too.
Might be my eyes...but bumper doesnt look straight either. |
+1
Looks like the bumper is the main issue (Could just be the angle of the pic).
Changing the rubber bushings will help a lot I'd wager. |
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KGCoupe
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Mellow Yellow 74 wrote: |
Thanks for the responses so far.
I have done some more investigating today and the body is level to within 1/4" on each side at the rockers and the rear wheel arch, but then at the back the right hand side is around 1-1/2" lower than the left hand side. The torsion bar tube is level and looks straight so I don't think this is the problem.
I have removed the two rubbers on each side above the rear suspension and they basically fell apart when I removed them (see photo). This probably doesn't help things but the gap between the body and the suspension is about the same so this doesn't seem to be the problem.
The gaps on the left hand door are fairly uniform but on the right hand door the clearance is tight along the bottom and larger at the top rear of the door, but I am not sure if this is a door hinge issue or something else. I plan to remove the body and replace both pans sometime, because the rear half of the floor pans on both sides have had very poor quality patch repairs.
From a visual (see photo), it looks like the whole rear end is twisted clockwise slightly. In the photo the muffler is level (but the pea shooter tubes are not even) so this shows the angle of the body. Could the poor pan replacement job potentially cause the whole body to twist somehow? If not then possibly there has been a poorly done 1/4 panel replacement done in the past. If this is the case I might just have to live with it, because removing and replacing the 1/4 panel is beyond my capabilities and budget.
Maybe I should adjust the torsion bars so the pan is level, then replace the floor pans and see if this fixes the level problem when I replace the body. If it doesn't I could try and pack up the body to pan connection on the right hand side. If this doesn't work maybe I could then adjust the torsion bars so the body is level but the pan isn't.
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According to page A81-2 of the 1960 VW Karmann Ghia Shop Manual - Body Section, if the door gap is wider at the top of the door then you need to add shims between the body and the pan. |
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Mellow Yellow 74
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| c21darrel wrote: |
Is it right hand drive?
Common for the driver side to sit lower just because cars are mostly driven solo. |
It is a right hand drive but if this was the problem I think the suspension would be sitting low rather than the body sitting low on the pan.
| Brassneck wrote: |
| Looks like the bumper is the main issue (Could just be the angle of the pic). |
The bumper is a bit wonky but it is sitting on a similar angle to the body so I don't think it is the bumper only.
| KGCoupe wrote: |
| According to page A81-2 of the 1960 VW Karmann Ghia Shop Manual - Body Section, if the door gap is wider at the top of the door then you need to add shims between the body and the pan. |
Thanks for this. I have this Bentley manual and the right hand door is sitting on an angle as shown in the drawing - the gap is about 1/4" at the top of the door and almost touching at the bottom. I will try and pack the right hand side when I replace the rubbers - I really hope this is the problem
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1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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carl4x4
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| Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:22 am Post subject: |
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I went through a lot of the same issues when I was restoring my Ghia. I thought it was the front of the car that was much lower on one side. Turned out it was actually the back that had sagged on the opposite side, causing a diagonal see-saw effect. (front-right goes up, rear-left goes down and visa-versa)
My car has adjustable rear spring plates so I fixed the front by adjusting the opposite back! if that makes sense.
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c21darrel
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Mellow Yellow 74
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| Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:55 am Post subject: |
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I made up some shims using 3mm (1/8") plate as shown on page A-63-3 of the Bentley manual. I removed the bolts between the body/pan and body/torsion bar under the rear seat then jacked up the rear right hand side of the body at the bumper mount.
I was able to get five give shims under the right hand side suspension mount - this improved the gap at the door a little but the rear end was still uneven and I managed to put a dent/crease the rear fender by trying to lift the rear too much.
Now I have a dented fender in addition to the body siting unevenly on the chassis/pan - very frustrating. I think I will just replace the spring plates, install new body to chassis rubbers and learn to live with an uneven rear end!
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1962 Karmann Ghia
1974 Deluxe Microbus
1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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c21darrel
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Mellow Yellow 74
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Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| c21darrel wrote: |
Thats not a jacking location.  |
True, but there isn't really a jacking location on the body rather than the chassis/pan. Anyway, I have decided to take the body off to replace the floor pans starting on the easter weekend so I will check it out more once the body is off.
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paul_round
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| Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| Interesting question though, I need to tweak my door gaps by shimming, so does anyone know how to lift the body to do this? |
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sputnick60
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| Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| paul_round wrote: |
| Interesting question though, I need to tweak my door gaps by shimming, so does anyone know how to lift the body to do this? |
I have to do this too at some stage. My thoughts involve using a floor jack and a block of wood wrapped in cloth. The block sits on the jack cradle to interface with the folded inner lip of the wheel tub. You would use only as much lift as you'd need to slip in the shim. Too much lift could start to bend things.
I thought about the rear bumpers as a possible lift point but that would simply put too much force in the wrong place.
That's just my reasoning so I too am interested to hear from someone who's actually done this.
Nicholas
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c21darrel
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Mellow Yellow 74
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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I have started pulling apart the KG for a resto and found a weld inside the rear quarter on the right hand side which suggests this has been replaced at some stage. I found this on another thread, which I thought could explain things:
| Rome wrote: |
| Be careful when you repair those rear wheel arches. Replacement arch panels have the "higher" arch edge shape of the later, large-taillight Ghias. They'll "work" on your car but you'll end up with incorrect arch shapes, especially if you only repair/replace the right side arch. |
But it is the left hand side which is sitting higher, so if the right hand side has been replaced this is back to front to how it should be if the new panels sit higher (if that makes sense). Maybe a panel beater many years in the past just did a shit job.
Anyway, I will check it out more once the body is off the pan and on the dolly.
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1962 Karmann Ghia
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1985 Caravelle (Vanagon) |
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kiwighia68
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| Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| sputnick60 wrote: |
| paul_round wrote: |
| Interesting question though, I need to tweak my door gaps by shimming, so does anyone know how to lift the body to do this? |
I have to do this too at some stage. My thoughts involve using a floor jack and a block of wood wrapped in cloth. The block sits on the jack cradle to interface with the folded inner lip of the wheel tub. You would use only as much lift as you'd need to slip in the shim. Too much lift could start to bend things.
I thought about the rear bumpers as a possible lift point but that would simply put too much force in the wrong place.
That's just my reasoning so I too am interested to hear from someone who's actually done this.
Nicholas |
When we test fitted the body onto the chassis to ensure that everything fitted properly, the door gaps were off. We then followed the instructions in the Bentley Manual. There are two steps. The first is to loosen the bolts which fasten the body to the rear of the chassis (under the back seat). (See the tab on the right in the pic.) The second step is to adjust the height (thickness) of the packing piece (10mm rubber "washer, oblong in shape) that fits between the body and the chassis (at the torsion springs opening) as required to close or increase the gaps between the door and the frame.(See the tab on the left in the pic.) EDIT: OOPS! SORRY, I HAD THAT SECOND TAB - the one on the left - IN THE WRONG PLACE. IT IS NOW IN THE RIGHT PLACE in the photo.
We lifted the body by hand for the adjustment, slipping the packing piece in and out as needed. I think the adjustment could be done as we did and without having to lift the body with a jack or similar. (We didn't even have to loosen the bolts that hold the body to the chassis under the rockers.)
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Mellow Yellow 74
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:58 am Post subject: |
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I have worked out the problem with the rear of the car sitting unevenly - I have stripped the paint and found that the rear half of the rear right hand side quarter panel has been replaced at some stage. Basically the new section has been welded on too low using some ugly looking welds then lots of body filler has been used to smooth it out.
The good news is that I have found a NOS rear quarter in Sydney to replace it but I am not 100% sure it is right for my 1962 model. From the KGPR website, I understand that the rear quarter for a 60-66 is different to a 67-69 and I am not sure which one the NOS rear quarter is.
I have put the new panel next to the old panel and they look the same, but it is hard to be sure when the old one isnt right to begin with. Can someone advise what the differences between the 60-66 and 67-69 rear quarters are so I can check this?
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