Help with a Spooky handling 56

Saggs · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:05 am Post subject: Help with a Spooky handling 56

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I got my 56 on the road last year after my long resto and the thing doesn't want to stay tracking straight down the road. Mid turn bumps will get it to shuck slightly and it like to follow road throughs and irregularities, at speed it can get pretty busy. Brand new pavement is nice otherwise not so much. I have an adj stock width beam, stock height, disc brakes in front with 175-70-15 tires on BRM wheels. In back are 205-65-15's and the rear is up maybe 1 inch. All new bushings, kingpins, tie rods, you name it. I'm trying to get it sorted out and improve the handling, any ideas? Thanks
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Fall23 · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:54 am Post subject:

Recommended Setup Summary:
FRONT – SWINGAXLE BEETLE
top and bottom. Cofap or KYB Gas shocks
2 extra-eccentric camber adjusters
Front –2 degrees negative camber
At least 3 degrees (preferably 5) positive caster
5mm (6/32-7/32”) Toe-out
18mm (3/4”) Sway bar
195/60/14 tires
Front MUST be 1” higher than the rear ride height.
REAR – SWINGAXLE BEETLE
Sway-A-Way Camber Compensator. Cofap/KYB Gas shocks only
-2 deg negative camber
2-3mm (3/32-1/8”) Toe-in
205/60/14 tires
Shimmed up Z bar
Rear MUST be 1” lower than the front ride height.

andk5591 · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:17 am Post subject:

The biggie for me has always been front toe. Double check that - should be in 1/8" at the front. Have had alignment shops have it backwards. Not hard to check - 2 tape measures (make sure they read the same) and a couple blocks or plates that you can lay against the outside of the tire - measure across the outside of the tires front and back. Front should be 1/8" narrower than rear of the tires. If that is wrong, who knows what else they messed up. Would take it back for them to fix.

Makes the car feel like you are on ice when you are taking any mild turns and it overall feels really weird. Who installed the shims at the link pins? Did you set it according to the manual? Have also had a shop "that knew what they were doing" leave the link pins real loose. Bottom line is that I dont use alignment shops anymore - I do my own. There are instructions on here on how to do it.

Didnt quite follow the previous post. You can have the front of teh car lower than the rear, but depending on how much is you need caster shims or not. Our 61 is about 4" lowered in the front, and I think I used 1 pair of shims.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
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Saggs · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:40 am Post subject:

Yes, thankyou both for the advice. I've never heard to toe out the front wheels as was stated in the 1st post. I do have one set of caster shims under the beam. I checked and rechecked my front toe and that's what got me to bring it to the "pros". I did my link pin shims w/ a jig and set them per the Bently specs. One thing I have noticed is the front feels awefully stiff. When you push down on it it doesnt want to spring right back like it seems it should Confused

I know I had to sand/ream the beam bushings a couple times to make the arms move more freely. The only way to chnge camber is to rearrange link shims but that doesnt seem like you could go very far w/ that tactic? I was thinking I might not have enough toe out in the rear.
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"One man can make a difference...Jesus did."

andk5591 · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:58 am Post subject:

OK - your tire wheel set up is similar to what we have on the 61. We have 185s on the front, but you are close. You are correct, the rear is to have a slight toe out, but when I replaced my rear spring bushings, I wimped out and just used the existing grooves that were filed into the spring arms and just put everything back the way it was.

I want to clarify - at the beginning of my post, I was talking about the toe on the front wheels only. 1/8" in at the front of the wheel relative to the rear of the wheel. And yeah - I set the shims to Bently specs as well.

Lets talk about your front end being tight a little more. You push down on the bumper and it doesnt move or just stays down? You have an adjustable beam or what?
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them...

Saggs · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:15 am Post subject:

Yes, I have an adj beam but I have the adjuster set to the highest position, mostly because the front just didnt seem to have any spring to it. I have the original springs in it. You push down w/ all your body weight and it goes down pretty stiff but not very far and doesnt really return to original height unless you lift up on it.
_________________
"One man can make a difference...Jesus did."

D. Haviland · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:37 am Post subject:

George,
What condition is the joining disc between the steering shaft and steering box?

Saggs · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:51 am Post subject:

Its a new aftermarket one. Steering box is new as well.

You still looking for a swingaxle tranny? Gotta clean my shed out.
_________________
"One man can make a difference...Jesus did."

VOLKSWAGNUT · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:10 am Post subject:

I have an observation...
How was the Front Camber "adjusted" with King Pins/Link Pins? Its not possible so dont even try... Shims are for assembly variance not adjustment... PERIOD!!!
Caster dropped.. did the shop removed beam shims????

The rear Camber being that high (positiive) it is steering the rear making it even more unstable at times.
Uneven/unlevel roads play havoc on 4 wheel independent suspension, especially a swing axle rear

Negative Camber front and rear promotes better handling performance .. .. most of the time...

Slight TOE OUT on the REAR
Slight TOE IN on the FRONT.
Is optimal..
.
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aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
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Saggs · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:14 am Post subject:

Good call, I was wondering that as well? I guess I have to lower the rear end to at least get it to 0 degs if not a bit neg. I highly doubt they removed the caster shim from the beam? Could a bent link arm cause issues? Does the rear toe out look to be adequate assuming they measured things correctly?
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"One man can make a difference...Jesus did."

VOLKSWAGNUT · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:16 am Post subject:

IMO the rear Camber is WAYYYYYYYY too high..
Zero to a smidge negative will help a ton..

The rear toe out is pretty good.. at -0.09 a side....

Seems odd to be so perfect rear toe though.....
And if nothing on the front was removed or added... Rolling Eyes

$20 bucks says they bumped the heads to make it look good...

You trust the shop?

Speaking from the shop side.... I align it as best as the car allows... and all above and beyond adjustments and alterations have a price...
Most VW drivers/owners will not pay for or want the extra .... so it is what it is a lot of times on those...

.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited

Saggs · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:31 am Post subject:

I trust the shop for tires but no idea how experienced they are on a 55 yrold bug. So if I get ther rear end squattin a bit, double check my front toe in, should I need anymore caster shims or to adjust my link pin shims any more? If I level the car side to side can I check the camber on the exposed face of the trailing arms without the kingpin assy in place? I do appreciate your advice!
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"One man can make a difference...Jesus did."

VOLKSWAGNUT · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:48 am Post subject:

Slow 1200 · Samba Member Joined: July 02, 2004 Posts: 2105

with those camber numbers you either did the shims wrong or there's something bent in the front

andk5591 · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 2:34 pm Post subject:

I am still concerned about the front end being stiff. If it was a ball joint front, I would say you have a bound up ball joint.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them...

57BLITZ · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:20 pm Post subject:

wcfvw69 · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:24 pm Post subject:

I might of missed it. What kind of shocks are you using? If they are gas charged shocks, that will contribute to your stiff suspension and lack of travel.

A buddy had me drive his stock 67 bug. It about rattled my teeth out. It had KYB Gas charged shocks. I got out of the bug and couldn't push the front suspension down. I told him to change them to regular Cofab oil shocks and he had a nice suspension travel again. He was shocked and very happy with his ride.

The front of a bug really doesn't have any weight. My opinion is the Germans designed the correct oil filled shocks for the weight of the front. The Co-fabs are the best front shocks I've used for a nice, stock ride.
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andk5591 · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:29 pm Post subject:

Valid point if using a monotube type gas shock like the KYB Gas adjusts. GR2 or Excels are not the same and not anywhere near as stiff....We have them on the 61.

So what you may want to do it get it up in the air and check each side and see if they are both stiff OR if its just one side. I go back to the ball joint thing - I did a body off and when I test drove the pan, I could swear that one side was not deflecting, but I blew it off. After the car was done I disciovered the one ball joint was binding. Replaced it and all was good. Similar symtoms as yours. So if your link pins are in a bind, I guess that could do it as mentioned above.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them...

Saggs · Posted: Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:20 pm Post subject:

just got out of work thawing frozen pipes- winter sucks Rolling Eyes

I set my shims w/ a jig per Bently. That doesn't mean something isn't bent however? I have oem type shocks that I got from CIp1, not gas or anything special, I have one set of caster shims under the beam at this point. I realize that the camber is preset and built in from the factory and thus the correct number of shims is required top and bottom. If I have the correct combo and something is binding with the link pins properly snugged then I guess I can assume a torsion arm is bent? PS, I do have a 3/4" front sway bar w/ urethane bushings....

I will check the following:
set rear camber
Check link pin shim settings
Check for binding front end
Recheck front toe.
Anything else,
_________________
"One man can make a difference...Jesus did."

Slow 1200 · Samba Member Joined: July 02, 2004 Posts: 2105

the spec for front camber is +40 minutes +-30 minutes (i.e 0.66º +- 0.5º), with a maximum difference of 30 minutes between both wheels, your right wheel is out of spec, the fact that caster is also so different from the other side makes me thing you have a bent arm


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