Rat trike from 1971 VW Beetle, brakes!

VSarge

Howdy folks,

Been away a long time.

Just picked up a rat trike using a 1971 Beetle as a donor. Very first ride the brakes felt....odd. They would work good and then nothing.

Discovered the rod running from the pedal to the lever actuating the master cylinder was too long. Adjusted it, good brakes.

Second ride and almost to work and I hear a loud clunk/bang from the right rear. Followed by zero brakes! Going down hill towards a very busy street. Shut her down and got stopped (otherwise I would not be posting).

Just pulled drums and discovered the pads were dang near worn out and even worse had debonded and were just rattling around in the drum. From the marks one had been for awhile now.

SO after all this, here are my questions:

I think I understand I want a BIGGER wheel cylinder and smaller master cylinder for the best braking.

Currently running stock all around (no front brakes at all).

Switching to a Super Beetle front wheel cylinders should yield an improvement, correct? Will it bolt in or am I going to need to redrill?

The master is the stock unit hence has fittings for front brakes which I do not need. Any recommendations on a replacement (down the line)?

Anyone make ceramic shoes for 1971 Beetles? A quick search leads me to think, no.

Thanks

Sarge
_________________
_________________
VW trike -- FrankenMutt
1971 1600
Swing Arm frame
Stock 4 spd tranny - no reverse gate (crap!)
1966/67 rear brakes wheel cylinders from front of 1966 Bug
1934 Chevy headlight
Custom leading link front end
Ford Ranger rims
P225/60R15 rear tires
GoldWIng front tire
Body is fiberglass nose from semi
One ugly exhaust, heavily rusted, set up for heat??? On a trike??

VSarge · Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2015 1:40 pm Post subject:

Changed shoes today and discovered I have drums from 1966/67 and a master from 1971. I do not know for sure but suspect the wheel cylinders are 66/67 also.

During my "adventure" I suspect I over extended the actuating rod and trashed the master. It refuses to pump fluid now at all.

Since it did work once, I am guessing there is no problem with the mix of 71 and 66 parts?

When I replace the master I will need to replace the wheel cylinders also as a bleeder is broken.

Without machining how can I get strong brakes out of this?

Sarge
_________________
_________________
VW trike -- FrankenMutt
1971 1600
Swing Arm frame
Stock 4 spd tranny - no reverse gate (crap!)
1966/67 rear brakes wheel cylinders from front of 1966 Bug
1934 Chevy headlight
Custom leading link front end
Ford Ranger rims
P225/60R15 rear tires
GoldWIng front tire
Body is fiberglass nose from semi
One ugly exhaust, heavily rusted, set up for heat??? On a trike??

VSarge · Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 2:05 pm Post subject:

Anyone know if Vanagon brakes (if I get everything including the backing plate) will fit? Crawled under today, rear frame is a 67 swing arm.

Sarge
_________________
_________________
VW trike -- FrankenMutt
1971 1600
Swing Arm frame
Stock 4 spd tranny - no reverse gate (crap!)
1966/67 rear brakes wheel cylinders from front of 1966 Bug
1934 Chevy headlight
Custom leading link front end
Ford Ranger rims
P225/60R15 rear tires
GoldWIng front tire
Body is fiberglass nose from semi
One ugly exhaust, heavily rusted, set up for heat??? On a trike??

VSarge · Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:04 pm Post subject:

For the info of others, Vanagon brakes CAN be used on a Bug. You use a Pinto backing plate which must be modified. Then the Vanagon brakes bolt right up. The gains are self adjusting and self energizing mechanicals as well as much larger shoes.

Replaced the master cylinder, packed full of rusty fluid and zero movement possible. I realized also that it is a dual circuit master but both rear brakes are connected to the rear circuit. I may move one to the front when I can afford some new lines. That way if one circuit fails I still have some brakes. Maybe not as I do plan to add an e-brake sometime.

Replaced both wheel cylinders with fronts from same yr Bug. Ummmm they are rather different by the way! They actually sit out away from the backing plate a little more than 1/4 inches further than the stock rears. But the drums mounts and adjustment is so much easier. The old ones (most likely stock from appearance) were frozen solid and thin from corrosion. I had to thump them out and they both broke into multiple pieces.

Let the brakes gravity bleed, right did a good job. Fluid was nasty but finally ran clear. Left never did gravity feed which I suspected. The line runs up and over.

At this point I had to pick up the wife from work, so I'll finish tonight or tomorrow.

Altho I need to rework the pedal/rod system. Way too much slop. Heck you can move the pedal over 10 inches and only get 1/4 inch movement at the cylinder. Free travel has to measure in as, well, a lot.

This job illustrates a point made in the Funeral VW thread. When you build something, ensure you can work on it WITHOUT disassembling the thing.

The master had a cover, looked decent, a pain to get off. Two bolts thru the fiberglass only within reach if you had two arms measuring 6 foot each!

Two others with a frame rail directly under the nuts and a lip so a socket had to be used but wouldn't fit. I heated and bent a box end wrench. It would only partially catch the dang nut but just enough to get it out.

The brake lines are made up evidently of pieces the gent had laying around connected together.

I discovered at the same time the Ranger rims on it only sort of fit. One lug nut seated correctly and the rest are slightly off center.

Yeah I don't mind talking to myself. Maybe someone will be assisted by my fumblings or at least get a chuckle from it.

Sarge
_________________
_________________
VW trike -- FrankenMutt
1971 1600
Swing Arm frame
Stock 4 spd tranny - no reverse gate (crap!)
1966/67 rear brakes wheel cylinders from front of 1966 Bug
1934 Chevy headlight
Custom leading link front end
Ford Ranger rims
P225/60R15 rear tires
GoldWIng front tire
Body is fiberglass nose from semi
One ugly exhaust, heavily rusted, set up for heat??? On a trike??

VSarge · Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:17 pm Post subject:

Still had a bit of sun so I pulled the pivot transitioning from the brake pedal rod and the master cylinder push rod. Loosen the bolt and two pieces fall out.

Now that there be a problem! It should be a single piece. Broke right at the ugly nasty humongous hole; at least 3/4" for a 3/8" shaft.

Did a fast bleed by hand using the push rod. Feels dang good!

Sarge
_________________
_________________
VW trike -- FrankenMutt
1971 1600
Swing Arm frame
Stock 4 spd tranny - no reverse gate (crap!)
1966/67 rear brakes wheel cylinders from front of 1966 Bug
1934 Chevy headlight
Custom leading link front end
Ford Ranger rims
P225/60R15 rear tires
GoldWIng front tire
Body is fiberglass nose from semi
One ugly exhaust, heavily rusted, set up for heat??? On a trike??

[email protected] · Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:02 pm Post subject:

You do seem to be talking to yourself.

VW went to a dual circuit I believe in 68 so you could get a single circuit master cylinder and about the same price as a dual circuit. It seems you have already bought the parts but I am sure the original VW brakes are perfectly capable of locking up the rear end of your trike, no need to upgrade. And if you keep the original rear brakes is should be easy to rig up a e-brake.

VSarge · Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:22 pm Post subject:

Basically this is stock brakes except for the wheel cylinders. It already had a 1971 master cylinder on it and the wheel cylinders were 1966.

I had a choice, get the fronts yesterday or the rears in a few more days. The fronts do give me a small upgrade with a slightly larger bore.

E-brake is planned, just need to save some cash.

Sarge
_________________
_________________
VW trike -- FrankenMutt
1971 1600
Swing Arm frame
Stock 4 spd tranny - no reverse gate (crap!)
1966/67 rear brakes wheel cylinders from front of 1966 Bug
1934 Chevy headlight
Custom leading link front end
Ford Ranger rims
P225/60R15 rear tires
GoldWIng front tire
Body is fiberglass nose from semi
One ugly exhaust, heavily rusted, set up for heat??? On a trike??

MacLeod Willy

VSarge · Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:41 pm Post subject:

In Missouri a trike is considered the same as a motorcycle. They check lights, tires, brakes, etc. This trike has not yet gone thru the inspection. When I get it straightened out I will start the paperwork cycle.

It should be interesting as the title is for a Corvair.

Sarge
_________________
_________________
VW trike -- FrankenMutt
1971 1600
Swing Arm frame
Stock 4 spd tranny - no reverse gate (crap!)
1966/67 rear brakes wheel cylinders from front of 1966 Bug
1934 Chevy headlight
Custom leading link front end
Ford Ranger rims
P225/60R15 rear tires
GoldWIng front tire
Body is fiberglass nose from semi
One ugly exhaust, heavily rusted, set up for heat??? On a trike??

VSarge

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Would changing it to this help?

_________________
_________________
VW trike -- FrankenMutt
1971 1600
Swing Arm frame
Stock 4 spd tranny - no reverse gate (crap!)
1966/67 rear brakes wheel cylinders from front of 1966 Bug
1934 Chevy headlight
Custom leading link front end
Ford Ranger rims
P225/60R15 rear tires
GoldWIng front tire
Body is fiberglass nose from semi
One ugly exhaust, heavily rusted, set up for heat??? On a trike??

[email protected] · Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:41 pm Post subject:

If the pedal has too much movement and no real braking in the back yes.

If you used a longer plate with half a dozen holes on the brake pedal you could fine tune the braking by moving a hole up or down.

VSarge · Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:53 pm Post subject:

Thanks and in essence you summed it up.

I could adjust the pedal to almost fully depress the master cylinder but not quite.

I should have actually looked at the connections after discovering the builder did not understand enough to have the connections to the pivot point closest to the master cylinder all in the same plane. That puppy was just wrong. The top and the bottom connections were hard right and the middle hard left. Kept binding and also had slop at every connection.

Had to make a few new pieces with correct spacers and remove about a mile of slop. Everything was smooth but couldn't get much movement on the rod into the master.

At this point I'm about ready to move the master in front of the pedal like on dune buggies. It would simplify the whole thing.

Sarge
_________________
_________________
VW trike -- FrankenMutt
1971 1600
Swing Arm frame
Stock 4 spd tranny - no reverse gate (crap!)
1966/67 rear brakes wheel cylinders from front of 1966 Bug
1934 Chevy headlight
Custom leading link front end
Ford Ranger rims
P225/60R15 rear tires
GoldWIng front tire
Body is fiberglass nose from semi
One ugly exhaust, heavily rusted, set up for heat??? On a trike??

BL3Manx · Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:41 pm Post subject:

Do you have an IRS rear suspension (71) or do you have a short spline swingaxle (66/67)? It makes a big difference in what you need to do to put a large wheel cylinder on your rear brake drums.

VSarge · Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:47 pm Post subject:

From what I can tell, a short axle 1966 swing arm.

So what types of problems am I looking at?

Sarge
_________________
_________________
VW trike -- FrankenMutt
1971 1600
Swing Arm frame
Stock 4 spd tranny - no reverse gate (crap!)
1966/67 rear brakes wheel cylinders from front of 1966 Bug
1934 Chevy headlight
Custom leading link front end
Ford Ranger rims
P225/60R15 rear tires
GoldWIng front tire
Body is fiberglass nose from semi
One ugly exhaust, heavily rusted, set up for heat??? On a trike??

BL3Manx · Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:07 pm Post subject:

If you want to put large wheel cylinders and 40mm wide shoes on your back brakes, you'll need to replace your backing plates with late model backing plates (69 or later) and if you want to keep the 5 x 205 rear wheel bolt pattern you'll need to machine the inner face of the drum 1/4" wider to fit the wider late model brake shoes.

The late brake backing plates are a straight bolt on swap. The late model 22mm front wheel cylinders are designed for use with 40mm wide shoes and will bolt straight onto the late model backing plates which are also designed for 40mm wide shoes. If you use late model front wheel cylinders on early rear backing plates the shoes won't sit parallel to the backing plate and won't seat square in the drum.

The only machining you'd need to have done is to have the inner drum face cut 1/4" wider so the wider brake shoes will fit. Any machine shop that can turn drums should be able to do it.

Below is a picture of an early rear drum, pre-68, which has been machined so the 40mm wide shoe fits and doesn't jam against the drum

VSarge · Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:19 pm Post subject:

If I grab the later backing plates, why not use the later drums as well? If I remember reading right, more machining but on the snout this time.

Sarge
_________________
_________________
VW trike -- FrankenMutt
1971 1600
Swing Arm frame
Stock 4 spd tranny - no reverse gate (crap!)
1966/67 rear brakes wheel cylinders from front of 1966 Bug
1934 Chevy headlight
Custom leading link front end
Ford Ranger rims
P225/60R15 rear tires
GoldWIng front tire
Body is fiberglass nose from semi
One ugly exhaust, heavily rusted, set up for heat??? On a trike??

BL3Manx · Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:25 pm Post subject:

Yes, you'll need to machine down the snout, but also they have a 4 bolt pattern so you'll need new rear wheels.

VSarge · Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:35 pm Post subject:

Hmmm good point, I forgot bout that. Prob cause the current rims are using an adapter already. Not fond of it but only due to "stories" I have heard.

Sarge
_________________
_________________
VW trike -- FrankenMutt
1971 1600
Swing Arm frame
Stock 4 spd tranny - no reverse gate (crap!)
1966/67 rear brakes wheel cylinders from front of 1966 Bug
1934 Chevy headlight
Custom leading link front end
Ford Ranger rims
P225/60R15 rear tires
GoldWIng front tire
Body is fiberglass nose from semi
One ugly exhaust, heavily rusted, set up for heat??? On a trike??

BL3Manx · Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:49 pm Post subject:

If you want to dump the adapters, its pretty easy to find widened 5 x 205 rims.

VSarge · Posted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:52 am Post subject: HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK, new shoes, new wheel cylinders, new master, and pedal/actuating rod redone to full travel.

Crying or Very sad

Still next to no brakes. It will occasionally lock up the right rear IF you slam the pedal so hard it hurts. In the process found two leaks.

Fixed leaks, rebled system. Clean new fluid thru-out. Adjusted shoes to touch, no joy. Adjusted brakes to drag, no joy.

While bleeding I noticed the pedal never starts to feel different; still same effort to depress.

Two thoughts:

Either I do not really have full travel in master (not a full stroke)

Or drums oversized, worn out.

Don't want either one really.

The travel problem would require some welding, drop pivot point under frame rail to gain more travel up top.

Drums are $65 or so each.

Sarge
_________________
_________________
VW trike -- FrankenMutt
1971 1600
Swing Arm frame
Stock 4 spd tranny - no reverse gate (crap!)
1966/67 rear brakes wheel cylinders from front of 1966 Bug
1934 Chevy headlight
Custom leading link front end
Ford Ranger rims
P225/60R15 rear tires
GoldWIng front tire
Body is fiberglass nose from semi
One ugly exhaust, heavily rusted, set up for heat??? On a trike??


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Rat trike from 1971 VW Beetle, brakes!
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