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Fuel injected Thing project
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EVfun
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mondshine wrote:
Your setup looks good.
My Thing has had a similar setup since before the turn of the century, except I use CIS injection. Megsaquirt had not been invented back then.
I will be curious to know whether you find the rotary throttle return spring adequate. The stock FI Beetles used a second spring which was connected to a long bracket that was part of the EGR system.[snip]

The rotary return spring alone has been working fine on my '79. I did have to shoot a little spray grease down the throttle cable tube at the engine end once to stop a random fast idle when I released the throttle gently.
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clonebug
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EVfun wrote:
mondshine wrote:
Your setup looks good.
My Thing has had a similar setup since before the turn of the century, except I use CIS injection. Megsaquirt had not been invented back then.
I will be curious to know whether you find the rotary throttle return spring adequate. The stock FI Beetles used a second spring which was connected to a long bracket that was part of the EGR system.[snip]

The rotary return spring alone has been working fine on my '79. I did have to shoot a little spray grease down the throttle cable tube at the engine end once to stop a random fast idle when I released the throttle gently.


I found I had a really sensitive throttle just off idle when I used the stock throttle body linkage with the German Plenum. It had a fair amount of resistance at idle and then would all of a sudden move which caused jerkiness when taking off.
It was annoying to say the least.

I ended up building my own intake and getting rid of the Plenum and also all the extra linkage that came with the Plenum.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936
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Jzsquared
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about the throttle cable mine is just a bit to long now. Is the FI 1979 cables a little shorter ?
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EVfun
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That I couldn't tell you. I have a '79 and beach buggy which has a shortened throttle cable.
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clonebug
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go to your local Ace Hardware store and get some hardened steel roll pins that will just slide onto the cable.
Flux the dickens out of the cable and solder it on where the barrel will grab it.
Next solder where you need to cut the excess and then take a cutting wheel and cut the cable shorter.

Look closely at the barrel nut.....you can see the roll pin inside it. I put two on just so I could be sure I would get it in the correct place.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936
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Jzsquared
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the tip Clonebug but I did order a cable for 1979 BEETLE for $5.00 so if that doesn't work I try your idea

After drinking a few beers and looking at the wiring I just hooked up I decided it looked like crap so I changed it up. I went to Frys and purchased some of this.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The nice part about this kind is you cut it with scissors instead of a heat knife, a little more $$ but I don't need a lot so its less than a hot knife.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

This is going under the dash to connect the O2 and Tach wires, pink was the only color Frys had in stock for 3/8 shrink wrap. pretty in pink I guess

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Much cleaner with the 18 awg wire instead of the 16 awg. Simply don't need bigger stuff for these connections

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power wires wrapped in 1/4 harness

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cut and fit Alt wires

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much cleaner

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K&N 4 1/2" filter with a 57mm base hope The throttle position sensor will fit
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EVfun
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is cool. I've been watching because I like my fuel injected '79. It isn't powerful, but it is so smooth at the lower end (and that FI system is so crude compared to megasquirt.) I wish there was a megasquirt retrofit FI control system for the '75 to '79 Beetles for use where a smog test is not required.

I would love a system that let me keep the whole fuel system, intake, and injector system. I would replace the air flow sensor, the "computer" box (its analog), the double relay system, and use a new FI wiring harness (oh, and that failure prone rubber elbow.) The stock head mounted thermostat should ideally be used for engine temperature. Keeping the auxiliary air regulator would be optional (for cold idle.) This would be a clean-up and modernization of the old L Jetronic system while leaving the engine largely stock. I think it would expand the market for FI Bug installs because it would be pretty cheap compared to systems that replace the injectors, fuel pump, and pressure regulator -- it would bolt onto a lot of existing engines. Users have had plenty of problems with the analog stock system, or fighting worn out (or backfire damaged) air flow sensors, or bad double relays.
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clonebug
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EVfun wrote:
That is cool. I've been watching because I like my fuel injected '79. It isn't powerful, but it is so smooth at the lower end (and that FI system is so crude compared to megasquirt.) I wish there was a megasquirt retrofit FI control system for the '75 to '79 Beetles for use where a smog test is not required.

I would love a system that let me keep the whole fuel system, intake, and injector system. I would replace the air flow sensor, the "computer" box (its analog), the double relay system, and use a new FI wiring harness (oh, and that failure prone rubber elbow.) The stock head mounted thermostat should ideally be used for engine temperature. Keeping the auxiliary air regulator would be optional (for cold idle.) This would be a clean-up and modernization of the old L Jetronic system while leaving the engine largely stock. I think it would expand the market for FI Bug installs because it would be pretty cheap compared to systems that replace the injectors, fuel pump, and pressure regulator -- it would bolt onto a lot of existing engines. Users have had plenty of problems with the analog stock system, or fighting worn out (or backfire damaged) air flow sensors, or bad double relays.


All you need to do is get CB FI intakes, some low or high Z Bosch injectors, (Mine are from a junkyard Volvo turbo 32#) A bosch TPS and the adapter to fit the stock TB, a GM IAT, a GM CLT and the associated MS ECU parts and wire harnesses.
You can use the stock fuel pump, filter, fuel lines, regulator, aircleaner box and for that matter the distributor but going crankfire is well worth it in my opinion.
I use the stock TB and regulator on mine but have the Volvo fuel pump and a Golf fuel filter. It was a packaging decision for most of my stuff.
Swapping to Megasquirt is not that difficult if you can do some wiring and Mario has some great harness setups that are worth the money since it makes most of it plug and play.
I don't run a cold idle valve and if I start my engine, get my tunes going, fasten my seatbelt and put on my glasses.... the engine is already warm enough to idle by itself and will drive away. It literally only takes 30 seconds to being ready to go.

Check the classifieds and look for used setups. They are out there.

Heck EV....you are from Seattle. Come out to the Burger Meet in July when the big VW show is on and you can check out my buggy and talk to Mario himself. Both of us are there. At least I have been there for the last 4 years I think.
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vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936
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Jzsquared
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do feel bad for y'all that need to worry about smog testing especially on 40 year old cars. I don't have any of that to worry about.
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EVfun
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clonebug wrote:
All you need to do is get CB FI intakes, some low or high Z Bosch injectors, (Mine are from a junkyard Volvo turbo 32#) A bosch TPS and the adapter to fit the stock TB, a GM IAT, a GM CLT and the associated MS ECU parts and wire harnesses. [snip]

Heck EV....you are from Seattle. Come out to the Burger Meet in July when the big VW show is on and you can check out my buggy and talk to Mario himself. Both of us are there. At least I have been there for the last 4 years I think.


I intend to make that show as I want to get a good look at Mario's FI stuff. I guess I'm mostly wondering, why replace the intakes and injectors if it is just a retrofit for a basically stock engine? My understanding is that the Megasquirt could handle low resistance injectors directly. I do agree that Mario has a sweet crank fire system and I would be inclined to ditch the DVDA while upgrading the L-jetronic.
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clonebug
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EVfun wrote:
clonebug wrote:
All you need to do is get CB FI intakes, some low or high Z Bosch injectors, (Mine are from a junkyard Volvo turbo 32#) A bosch TPS and the adapter to fit the stock TB, a GM IAT, a GM CLT and the associated MS ECU parts and wire harnesses. [snip]

Heck EV....you are from Seattle. Come out to the Burger Meet in July when the big VW show is on and you can check out my buggy and talk to Mario himself. Both of us are there. At least I have been there for the last 4 years I think.


I intend to make that show as I want to get a good look at Mario's FI stuff. I guess I'm mostly wondering, why replace the intakes and injectors if it is just a retrofit for a basically stock engine? My understanding is that the Megasquirt could handle low resistance injectors directly. I do agree that Mario has a sweet crank fire system and I would be inclined to ditch the DVDA while upgrading the L-jetronic.


I'm not positive on the stock injectors but I don't think they are compatible with MS but it could be because those injectors end up being too small to handle any extra power. I run 32# (336cc) injectors and they are good to 230 plus hp. The stock intakes won't fit the new style Bosch injector because the hole is too small.

I run low Z injectors on my MS-2 Extra now and my MS-1 Extra that I upgraded from from last year.
I was going to keep the MS-1 for another project but it is available and is a robust system for someone wanting to get their feet wet with EFI.

Mario runs the Mexican EFI hardware on his bug and has had it at the shows for all to see. It is a very clean setup.

There is nothing wrong with the German setup and I am pretty sure it will handle more HP than the Mexican setup but I could be wrong.
I have pushed 179 HP through my home made manifold and did about 130 hp through the German one before I upgraded.
_________________
vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936
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EVfun
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

clonebug wrote:
I'm not positive on the stock injectors but I don't think they are compatible with MS but it could be because those injectors end up being too small to handle any extra power. I run 32# (336cc) injectors and they are good to 230 plus hp. The stock intakes won't fit the new style Bosch injector because the hole is too small.


It was a pain to find data on the stock injectors, but several sources indicate that they are 18#. Thanks for your help.

I also want to thank Jzsquared, Your assembly pictures are making the EFI conversion a lot more clear.
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Jzsquared
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure thing

There must be a simpler way if you already have most of the items. In my case I started with zero just a used plenum & intake so had to by all new or at least wanted to. I'll admit it's all because I like the look of the German FI over the Mexican no other reason than that.
My end goal is a smooth running car that I can really use as a daily driver and vacation cruiser as weather permits.
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clonebug
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jzsquared wrote:
Sure thing

There must be a simpler way if you already have most of the items. In my case I started with zero just a used plenum & intake so had to by all new or at least wanted to. I'll admit it's all because I like the look of the German FI over the Mexican no other reason than that.
My end goal is a smooth running car that I can really use as a daily driver and vacation cruiser as weather permits.


I am sure you will reach your goal with ease.

Just make sure you run all the wires like you would want them finished...not just hook up helter skelter and tell yourself you will fix it later.

Clean, neat wiring is the key. It will make everything soooo much easier if it is done neatly.
Mario's twisted pair setup is an excellent system and keeps cross talk and interference to a minimum.

I love my FI and would never go back to a carb. I haven't had to smell gas or change jets in 3 years now.

Here is some of my wiring.

Relay board

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Engine harness

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


All nicely hidden....

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I spent quite a bit of time in the garage just looking at everything and planning how to run the wiring the best way.
I also had to make sure I could get it out again since I take my buggy apart every winter for upgrades.

In fact I am redoing some wiring right now. I have my original engine wiring separate from my ECU wiring to a certain degree.

Here is my main engine wiring getting redone right now.

Laid out on a board...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Covered with expandable wrap.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Installed and wired to some terminals on the transmission.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936
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Jzsquared
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't agree more on the clean wiring comment I'm glad I found about the expandable wiring inplace of the other way I ran it. I did take the time to twist the two wires I ran the other day for the tach and O2 that are mounted on my dash. The rest will be done my Mario for this build.
What brand of sheeving do you run ? Also what version, I see techflex offers different versions.
I know I will end up buying a hot knife so every new wire I run will be covered. I'm the king of having the tool I only use once a year Very Happy but there is no substitute for the right tool.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jzsquared wrote:
I couldn't agree more on the clean wiring comment I'm glad I found about the expandable wiring inplace of the other way I ran it. I did take the time to twist the two wires I ran the other day for the tach and O2 that are mounted on my dash. The rest will be done my Mario for this build.
What brand of sheeving do you run ? Also what version, I see techflex offers different versions.
I know I will end up buying a hot knife so every new wire I run will be covered. I'm the king of having the tool I only use once a year Very Happy but there is no substitute for the right tool.


I ordered my stuff from http://www.cabletiesandmore.com/ExpandableSleeving.php

I ordered a bunch of different sizes plus I ordered a bunch of 4 ft long double walled shrink tubing to seal the ends. Last time I used single wall shrink tubing and it slipped on the PET stuff. The double wall stuff has a sealer inside that melts and sticks to the wire and covering.
It was too reasonably priced not to get it.

The smaller stuff will expand a lot and can cover almost all the wiring you need.
I got about six different sizes.... at 25 ft each........I do a lot of wiring every winter coming up with better ideas.
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vwracerdave wrote:

Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see.


Paul.H wrote:
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month



My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936
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Jzsquared
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Well like most of my initial thoughts on this build putting the ECM where I wanted it just will not work, well maybe if my hands were the size of a 6 year old. Simply to crammed in there and the wiring harness wasn't long enough to reach under the hood. I don't feel like starting over so I made an adjustment on the placement of the Megasquirt. When the top is down it will cover the unit in case of light rain I will at some point build some kind of vented box to cover everything but for now it will work. I think if I buy a boot for my top that will also help in case I get caught in the rain with my top down. The other concern I had is I like being able to just hose out the inside which would not be advisable if the Megasquirt was mounted on the floor. A few holes I didn't want to drill but with a nice grommets it will be fine still have all the back for storage as well
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well not a whole lot new just connecting more wires and making my spark plugs. The shrink wrap I bought doesn't work well so I ordered the double think stuff with adhesive so as usual I'm in the hurry up and wait mode. I'm cutting the wires to length but need to shrink the ends before final connection.

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I will tighten the wires up a bit once connected
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mondshine
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JZ-
Please make your best effort to drive that car to Dayton this July for the Kubel Treffen.

I sure do want to see it in person.

Good luck, Mondshine
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mondshine wrote:
JZ-
Please make your best effort to drive that car to Dayton this July for the Kubel Treffen.

I sure do want to see it in person.

Good luck, Mondshine


As long as I get everything running like I expect I will surly be there.
I just checked UPS website and my injectors will be here today Very Happy now I can get moving again
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