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richardfry19 Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2009 Posts: 231 Location: ohio
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Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:22 pm Post subject: Encouragement |
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it seems the vw gods hate me. ive had my 69 fasty for 5 years now, and yet it still sits in my garage, taunting me, and ill i want to do is make it my daily. untill i can restore it properly. when i first got it, it ran kinda good, but all the seals were rotted, and the fuel injection wiring harness was in shambles (more tape than wire). while trying to figure out why it was running rough the fuel pump went out. so i had a set of solex carbs and pump lying around and i switched it over, it still didnt run well, but i knew i was going to have to clean and rebuild it when i started( seriously there was a squirrel nest in the cooling system).
after the case got out of the steam cleaner at school, i found severe corrosion around the oil screen studs. if that wasnt worse there was a massive crack from the corrosion to the slot for the #1 cyl
after acquiring a new case i reassembled the engine and put it in. then, for a brief moment, the vw gods smiled on me. it ran beautifully, and i drove it for the first time in 5 years. i was like a kid again giggling like a madman, a spectator would have been concerned.
then when i pulled in the driveway, it happened. there was a grinding noise and the the engine took of on its own(luckily it was in neutral) upon further inspection, the bolts holding the torque converter to the back plate snapped and rattled around before being shot out of the bell housing like a bullet.
i guess im making this post to vent, but i almost dont want to do it anymore. but then i remember how awesome it felt to drive it, even for a few minutes.
any ideas why the bolts sheared? sure they were tough to put in but i made sure they were tight _________________ Fahrvergnügen = the joy of driving......a feeling only felt when driving a Volkswagen |
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richardfry19 Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2009 Posts: 231 Location: ohio
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Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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also if anyone has access to a flexplate that would be sweet _________________ Fahrvergnügen = the joy of driving......a feeling only felt when driving a Volkswagen |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22431 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: encouragement |
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richardfry19 wrote: |
any ideas why the bolts sheared? sure they were tough to put in but i made sure they were tight |
My guess is that the bolts backed out (you didn't loctite them), and they hit something solid and sheared.
To fix it, you'll need to pul the engine out, so you can get the remains of the 3 bolts out of the torque converter.Or, you'll need to replace the TC, along with the bolts. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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ibjack Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2002 Posts: 2106 Location: Imperial Beach CA
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Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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We all feel like that from time to time. My good friend Pedro has taught me an important lesson that I will pass along. When dealing with a problem, you need to fix it and by that I mean fix it properly. Skills may limit what properly is but most of the time it's laziness or we are in too much of a hurry. Take your time and do it once. Be sure to check everything from the beginning when trying to solve a problem. This means if you bled your brakes four times and still have no pedal pressure, you probably need to adjust your brake shoes. Even if you already did it check it again. I am quite lucky to have a guy like Pedro close and realize that most of you struggle and go through these mishaps alone. Don't give up, but also be realistic in your expectations. Take your time to do everything the right way in the end the math is simple. Once the right way will take less that twice the wrong way. Good Luck and keep your chin up. You can do this _________________ '68 Lotus White T34 automatic sunroof
'64 Manila Yellow T34
'65 Sea Blue Square Panel
the1500club.com
Shop Lacky at the T3/34 Factory, https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100094313902074 |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34021 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: encouragement |
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Bobnotch wrote: |
richardfry19 wrote: |
any ideas why the bolts sheared? sure they were tough to put in but i made sure they were tight |
My guess is that the bolts backed out (you didn't loctite them), and they hit something solid and sheared.
To fix it, you'll need to pul the engine out, so you can get the remains of the 3 bolts out of the torque converter.Or, you'll need to replace the TC, along with the bolts. |
Any chance the endplay wasn't right and it moved enough to shear? I can't remember how much clearance there is for those bolts... |
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blues90 Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009 Posts: 1912 Location: Hollywood ,CA
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Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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If I recall there is enough space that end play would not be enough to allow the bolts to hit . The flex plate is held to the crank and the converter takes up the entire differential bell housing . The only possible place the bolts could hit would be the bottom access cover or the area near it. . The three bolts are in to far to hit the starter or ring on the converter . The plate is not round it's a triangle . I recall mine had lock washers to keep them from backing out and they are pretty hard to break lose . Either there were no lock washers or they were not tight to begin with. I would check the plates holes if they are damaged then the bolts were loose . When you are at idle and in neutral there really isn't any real force on the converter and the pump is just circulating . It's really only when you are in drive and bring up the RPM's the pump and converter go into action. They are M8 x 1.25 grade 8 bolts torque at 18 ft pounds |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22431 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:31 am Post subject: |
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ibjack wrote: |
We all feel like that from time to time. My good friend Pedro has taught me an important lesson that I will pass along. When dealing with a problem, you need to fix it and by that I mean fix it properly. Once the right way will take less that twice the wrong way. Good Luck and keep your chin up. You can do this |
Also Patron or other source of alcohol helps too.
But yes, fixing something right the first time will save money in the long run. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22431 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:37 am Post subject: Re: encouragement |
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KTPhil wrote: |
Bobnotch wrote: |
richardfry19 wrote: |
any ideas why the bolts sheared? sure they were tough to put in but i made sure they were tight |
My guess is that the bolts backed out (you didn't loctite them), and they hit something solid and sheared.
To fix it, you'll need to pul the engine out, so you can get the remains of the 3 bolts out of the torque converter.Or, you'll need to replace the TC, along with the bolts. |
Any chance the endplay wasn't right and it moved enough to shear? I can't remember how much clearance there is for those bolts... |
He also didn't mention whether or not the case was carved out for AT or not. On AT cases, there's a pretty decent size chunk removed from the left lower corner. If a standard case was lightly modified, just enough to get the converter bolts in, they might not have gotten tight enough, and might have backed out and caught a case rib.
Like William said above, end play shouldn't have an effect here, due to everything being in line with 1 another. Plus, the converter has room to move in and out some. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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blues90 Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009 Posts: 1912 Location: Hollywood ,CA
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Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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I had a chance to look at my spare 73 engine case and the differential bell housing. The case looks like it's closed all the way around except for a small space at the very bottom. The Differential bell housing has the opening at the bottom to access the drive/flex plate. The Auto trans diff is completely different than a stick. The flex plate in the bentley looks full round I didn't look at the extra I have but recall it was just a large triangle shape . I'm old and it was 2003 last time I had a look or they made different ones for different years.
The cover that goes over the flex plate opening in the diff fastens to the diff . The bolt heads or bolts that secure the plate to the converter face the case so if they broke off they had to hit the engine case . I know the cases differ yet the 1600 FI case as far as I can tell at least the late ones have a different cam for FI and from 67 to 73 the later ones not sure what year this began had two oil pressure relief valves.
You may need to take a look and see by turning the engine and looking through the flex plate bolt holes if the bolts damaged the block in some manner.
It just seems odd no noise was heard if the bolts were loose or how on a short ride they could have backed out enough to hit anything. |
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richardfry19 Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2009 Posts: 231 Location: ohio
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Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: encouragement |
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Bobnotch wrote: |
richardfry19 wrote: |
any ideas why the bolts sheared? sure they were tough to put in but i made sure they were tight |
My guess is that the bolts backed out (you didn't loctite them), and they hit something solid and sheared.
To fix it, you'll need to pul the engine out, so you can get the remains of the 3 bolts out of the torque converter.Or, you'll need to replace the TC, along with the bolts. |
thats exactly what happened it was the first time ive rebuilt an engine outside of school. i just pulled the engine and im concerned i may have messed up. the holes in the flex plate are elongated, and the threads in the converter are wobbled out. also the bolt holding the cooling fans in backed out, even though i torqued it to spec. now the dowel peg is screwed, along with the hole it slid into.
*rubs temples* im about to go to my local junkyard and find a different engine. _________________ Fahrvergnügen = the joy of driving......a feeling only felt when driving a Volkswagen |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 34021 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: encouragement |
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richardfry19 wrote: |
the holes in the flex plate are elongated, and the threads in the converter are wobbled out. |
Any chance you can drill and tap it to a larger size that would include the ovalled area, then use larger diameter bolts?
richardfry19 wrote: |
also the bolt holding the cooling fans in backed out, even though i torqued it to spec. now the dowel peg is screwed, along with the hole it slid into. |
Some manuals list the smaller Bug torque (something like 35-40 ft-lbs) but the Type 3 needs much more (like 90 ft-lbs). Someone with a manual handy can give you the exact figure.
Last edited by KTPhil on Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:04 am; edited 2 times in total |
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richardfry19 Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2009 Posts: 231 Location: ohio
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Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: encouragement |
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KTPhil wrote: |
richardfry19 wrote: |
the holes in the flex plate are elongated, and the threads in the converter are wobbled out. |
Any chance you can drill and tap it to a larger size that would include the oval led area, then use larger diameter bolts?
richardfry19 wrote: |
also the bolt holding the cooling fans in backed out, even though i torqued it to spec. now the dowel peg is screwed, along with the hole it slid into. |
Some manuals list the smaller Bug torque (something like 35-40 ft-on) but the Type 3 needs much more (like 90 ft-lbs). Someone with a manual handy can give you the exact figure. |
the thought crossed my mind, and i have a shop manual. ill take some pictures of the damage in the morning and post it. _________________ Fahrvergnügen = the joy of driving......a feeling only felt when driving a Volkswagen |
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richardfry19 Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2009 Posts: 231 Location: ohio
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ddare Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2005 Posts: 583 Location: Cypress, CA
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Posted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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I got a drive plate from Jose at DPR for $150 a few months ago, and that included the cost for 8 doweling it. |
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