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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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 Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:22 am Post subject: |
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Well, I guess I'll jump in. I stopped being a Bugpack dealer in the late 90's because everytime I placed a stock order, they backordered 30%+ of my order. Of course every company that manufacturers at that level is going to have some quality control issues. Since I bought Mofoco from my father, I have closed our service department and absolutely refuse to ever work on another car again. Part of the reason is the availability of good parts and part of the reason has to do with people's willingness to actually pay what it costs to fix a car that sat in a barn for 30 years. I am concentrating 100% of my efforts on building engines, transmissions, cylinder heads and all the associated parts. For engine internals, EMPI does a pretty damn good job. Of course I only build stock and street performance engines 175hp and under. I don't do turbos or NOX. Sure, there are some things I won't buy from EMPI but there are a lot of products EMPI makes that are far SUPERIOR to other manufacturers. The key to this whole industry is knowing what you need and buying it from the right company. So many people are duped into overbuying on their engines, using $400 sets of H-Beam rods on a mild 1776 or underbuying and using cheap cast parts on 250hp turbo motors. One way, you're wasting your money. The other way, you are breaking parts every build and swearing about how all parts are crap. The fact that EMPI bought Bugpack probably won't affect me at all. For all of you that think the sky is falling, please say HI to Chicken Little for me.
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Vanapplebomb
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010
Posts: 5410
Location: Holland, MI
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Eaallred wrote: |
Not everything EMPI made was poor quality. When Mr. Bug bought out EMPI the quality did go down quite a bit (and is where the reputation stems from), but in the last 10 years or so it has improved quite a bit. There's a lot of decent product out there right now. |
Agreed. It is to bad that there is such a stigma that keeps people away from some otherwise good products. True, some of their stuff is shoddy work, but the past few years have shown that they are making a genuine effort with several of their product lines. They have done amazing things with the second and third generation HPMX carburetors. Several teams racing the Baja have proven that the EMPI off road cv joints hold up every bit as good as GKN's Lobro cv joints.
One thing that gets always me is that so many people become disappointed with the quality of parts that have already been proven to be sub par by many an individual. If you ask me, it is the buyers own fault for being disappointed because they didn't take ten or twenty minutes to search and read about others experiences with the product of interest. 1000's of people have already bit the bullet and figured out for the rest of us what is hot and what is not. disregarding such easily accessible information is just flat out foolish if you ask me.
| [email protected] wrote: |
| For engine internals, EMPI does a pretty damn good job. Of course I only build stock and street performance engines 175hp and under. I don't do turbos or NOX. Sure, there are some things I won't buy from EMPI but there are a lot of products EMPI makes that are far SUPERIOR to other manufacturers. The key to this whole industry is knowing what you need and buying it from the right company. So many people are duped into overbuying on their engines, using $400 sets of H-Beam rods on a mild 1776 or underbuying and using cheap cast parts on 250hp turbo motors. One way, you're wasting your money. The other way, you are breaking parts every build and swearing about how all parts are crap. |
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Honest words from an honest dude. Well put Roy
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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galencurrington
Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2004
Posts: 426
Location: bowling green, ky
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:06 am Post subject: |
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i hope the new bay window drop spindles that empi just made are going to be any count. i heard it took them awhile because of some quality issues and this batch that was good they only have 70 pairs.
i had some economics teacher say you can get cheap, good and fast but you can only get two out of the three and i guess most companies only make cheap and fast. i always argued that you can't get cheap and good either.
i wonder if the hot rod guys deal in the same stuff about quality as we do when they buy stuff from different suppliers.
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"asking and getting are two different things" |
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Stuart Maingot
Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2009
Posts: 240
Location: Trinidad West Indies
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| so you're in a bar and the chick behind the counter serving drinks is giving you the eye but looks like a last resort based on the hot single chicks available otherwise. Coming down to the wee hours of the morning after you strike out with all the hot chicks the bar chick starts to look really good. Yae you're drunk by now but what's left. Kinda similar story about EMPI. |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| from my exp with people that had engine parts that failed...most of the time it wasent thier first goround,and they seem to always blame the parts nomater what or who's parts they were using. cant fix stupid.but there are also some not so good parts,some made rong, some designed rong, some designed right&made rong. and the list go's on. a good part can be made bad, a bad part can be made better. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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welp, looks like this reinforces my Subaru swap decision. after my last go around with aircooled engine stuff made offshores I vowed to myself I would rather be stabbed in the dick than work with any of that trash again
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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panpan388
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2014
Posts: 60
Location: PA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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What Empi parts are crap vs. good? I definitely want to stay away from the crap.  |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Life will go on in the industry like nothing ever happened. EMPI is a company that is controlled by numbers, which is why the business model works so well. The numbers are the only thing that matters, and doing anything required to achieve them is a requirement.
I always favored working with Bugpack from an R&D point of view and for a few years I built engines using only their parts for the replicar world.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that things are dying off everyday. Look at your favorite publication and how it has dwindled over the years to basically being a brochure.
Last year I dropped by to see one of my competitors. He asked me if I'd refer some work his way because they were starving, and they just needed enough to get them through till he and his partner could retire. When I used to stop by their shop the crew of 10-15 people were hustling and I was impressed.
My last visit found him and his partner working with one gal at the desk and one guy cleaning parts. The owner had his own engine on the dyno, and every engine stand was empty except for one. Lots more people in the VW industry think the same way, and they are just waiting their turn to sit back and relax.
Today the only innovation thats being done is targeted to keep companies in business that weren't smart enough to diversify into other markets. They HAVE to keep people enthusiastic somehow, else they'll die too.
There will always be a VW industry, but it'll never be what it once was.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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galencurrington
Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2004
Posts: 426
Location: bowling green, ky
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:58 am Post subject: |
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well someones going to have to work on these 100k buses can't be that many people out there that do.
i stay pretty busy working on super beetles and mostly late stuff on the weekends part time around my area because there's no one else that does any good work on them and your average vw person not going to pay $100 an hour to work on them at the import place were they work on bmw and porsche and stuff. most of the vw people around here are still thinking that they are cheap cars so they are not going to put that much money in them to be $100 an hour.
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:21 am Post subject: |
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We've been at over 100/ hr for 5 years+. I charge the same to work on a VW as I do a 2015 Porsche GT3, and the VW engine is more difficult and time consuming.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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galencurrington
Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2004
Posts: 426
Location: bowling green, ky
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:35 am Post subject: |
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jake you have a great reputation to justify the price. i'm just a young padawan and i'm not keeping the shop doors open i'm just doing it out of my garage on the weekends
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wcfvw69 
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
| We've been at over 100/ hr for 5 years+. I charge the same to work on a VW as I do a 2015 Porsche GT3, and the VW engine is more difficult and time consuming. |
I think the key here is that you're a known QUALITY shop with a great reputation for anally correct work. In my case, I would pony up and pay for the best parts/workmanship I can find. This is UN-COMMON today with the few remaining local shops who only work on air cooled VW's. Frankly, I'm not sure how they keep their doors open w/out diversifying into working on other vehicles along with the classic VW's. The other factor in my mind is classic VW's are becoming hobby cars, not daily drivers. As a result, most of the owners do the work themselves vs. taking them to a shop to work on them.
Too often people pay the top dollar labor rates for woefully poor quality work and often get ripped off at the same time. I was highly disappointed a few years back with a very well known shop here in Phoenix. They seem to always be in hot VW's magazine and were known for good work. I had taken apart a 67 bug engine for overhaul. I wanted the case aligned bored and all the rotating parts balanced. It was a bone stock rebuild that I wanted to run smooth and last. I paid A LOT for this work. When I got home and inspected the parts, I was shocked at how FILTHY the case, crank and the other parts were. For what I paid, I'd of thought the case would have been hot tanked after the work along with the other parts. I had to spend HOURS cleaning the case and the other parts before reassembly. The parts that were "balanced" looked terrible where they removed metal during the balancing process. I took them to a non-vw shop and had the work double checked. For the most part, they were balanced but the guy said it looked like a gorrila did the work.
Like Jake shared about his competitor, it's not going to be long before air cooled only repair shops are a thing of the past. Most will close their doors like were are already seeing everyday. Others will have to change their business model and work on multiple vehicle types to survive.
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Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
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dirtkeeper
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2008
Posts: 3200
Location: Left of everywhere
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| I think for the makers of these parts its tough. Bugpack was probably running out of stock on items, then they have to order a new manufacturing run and of course they have to commit to make a few thousand parts at a time. This may be a 100 year supply at the rate the part is being sold. No money there. |
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germanstyle
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2003
Posts: 289
Location: santa rosa, ca
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:31 am Post subject: |
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And lets not forget, consumers dictate the quality level. If the majority only buy the cheapest they can find, that's what's going to be made.
"I shopped between a Fast Fab part and an Empi part. I bought the Empi part because it was a lot cheaper. But man, this Empi part isn't as nice as Fast Fab's part, Empi sucks!"
That gets old. |
I agree with this a 1000%
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| galencurrington wrote: |
| your average vw person not going to pay $100 an hour to work on them |
Why is it "different"? Because its a vw, or because it should be cheaper because its "a hobby?"
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| We've been at over 100/ hr for 5 years+. I charge the same to work on a VW as I do a 2015 Porsche GT3, and the VW engine is more difficult and time consuming. |
^^^^
That's real. It cost money to run a shop, no matter what you are working on
| galencurrington wrote: |
| jake you have a great reputation to justify the price. i'm just a young padawan and i'm not keeping the shop doors open i'm just doing it out of my garage on the weekends |
Reputation has no reflection on prices. I can't control DMv fees, insurance, taxes etc...the price is what it is yet 90% of business owners are looked at as being filthy rich. And "back yard" guys devalue the rest of the trade so bad, its not even funny.....
I pay 8,890 a year for the "honor" to use volvo VIDA diagnostic system....so it's 100 for a drive by "can you check my check engine light". If you go to autozone and come back with a generic p code, guess what...its still 100 clams for me to "just plug in"
Sorry, no one will ever win the "I can get it cheaper" argument with me....and my insurance won't cover customer supplied parts either.
That's my skillz reality check of the day 
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:59 am Post subject: |
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The certain vendor's business model and quality only works because they are dealing with a certain type of car and buyer. These people will take the hit on quality to save a buck. Most have some chromed out car that hits on 3 cylinders and leaks oil like a sieve, so they don't even drive it.
Try offering that type of component in the Porsche world and see where you end up.
People buying junk is why junk is offered. Period.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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vugbug68
Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2006
Posts: 2696
Location: sacramento
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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There's not a big enough demand anymore for old VW repair shops, even though there is still a big VW following the owners usually do the work themselves. I think that's part of the appeal of air cooled V-dubs, if something breaks you can rig something up to fix it (at least for a while) so there isn't enough people willing to spend $$ to fix it with high quality parts.
My VW's are daily drivers, I have never owned a watercooled vehicle and I wont be paying anyone else to work on them, If I have to buy an Empi part to get my car back on the road before I have to be somewhere then so be it.
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| galencurrington wrote: |
| your average vw person not going to pay $100 an hour to work on them |
If you guys think the owner of a 2015 GT3, and an owner of a 35+ year old classic VW are in the same demographic, you guys are smoking some righteous herb. Of the 10 years I worked at a shop that serviced Aircooled VW's only, and the 1000's of people I sold parts to, I can count on the fingers of one hand how many people would pay $100 an hour for work.
Its great some have clients willing to have them do work for $100 an hour. I now work on European Vehicles (with more than a few valued in the 7+ figure range) in a full restoration shop employing 11 people, and our rate isn't $100 an hour. How do we keep our doors open....? I can see spending more than a vehicle is worth for a full nut, and bolt restoration, but not too many are going to pay more than the vehicle's worth for an engine/trans rebuild/brake job.
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
Reputation has no reflection on prices. I can't control DMv fees, insurance, taxes etc...the price is what it is yet 90% of business owners are looked at as being filthy rich. And "back yard" guys devalue the rest of the trade so bad, its not even funny.....
I pay 8,890 a year for the "honor" to use volvo VIDA diagnostic system....so it's 100 for a drive by "can you check my check engine light". If you go to autozone and come back with a generic p code, guess what...its still 100 clams for me to "just plug in"
Sorry, no one will ever win the "I can get it cheaper" argument with me....and my insurance won't cover customer supplied parts either.
That's my skillz reality check of the day |
Paying your $9000 license fee for your diagnostic equipment doesn't really have any relevance in the discussion. With the exception of the last 8-9 years of Aircooled VW's, most didn't have OBD ports to "just plug in". Its like saying you pay a lot for diagnostic equipment to test altimeters.
Yes, the parts supply, and call for shops to service 35+ year old vehicles is going to slowly decrease in demand. Of the 3 "local" shops that deal exclusively with Aircooled VW's, they all are doing pretty damn well. One has decreased their service work in favor of concentrating on parts sales, and has made up the difference loosing the service work. One shop serviced Aircooled VW's when they were being driven daily 25+ years ago, expanded to modern VW's, and is now being overwhelmed by Aircooled VW's for restoration to the point he no longer has time for modern VW service work. Another shop has only worked on Aircooled VW's since the mid 80's, and has had a steady business that has grown quite a bit in the last few years. The shops you guys are talking about closing, either are piss poor in advertising/promotion, or are trying to charge $100 an hour to someone that has $5000 in the entire vehicle.
To get back on topic, Empi, and CB Performance seem to be about the only companies trying to expand their catalog to help the Airccoled VW Hobby. For every 1 person condemning Empi, there are a 100 people happily driving around with Empi parts on their car without issue. If they are able to keep affordable, available parts for enthusiasts wanting to play with 35+ year old VW's for years to come, I'm all for it. |
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Jake Raby
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2003
Posts: 7433
Location: Aircooled Heaven USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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Many of my Porsche customers also own VWs. Dedicated aircooled VW shops are a labor of love; because when you have to make every part fit, there's no way you are making money.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell" |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| Paying your $9000 license fee for your diagnostic equipment doesn't really have any relevance in the discussion. With the exception of the last 8-9 years of Aircooled VW's, most didn't have OBD ports to "just plug in". Its like saying you pay a lot for diagnostic equipment to test altimeters.. |
I get that. but that's like back yard bubba doing your ball joints with a hammer and chisel, while the properly equipped shop has a press and the cups to do it.
that's what separates the men from the boys. the Kool-Aid drinking snap on crowd that *think* they can accurately diagnose a CAN or MOST issue with a Volvo end up hurting the customer more than helping. there was a fellow on iATN that couldn't believe that the brake lights were part of the CAN bus, run via the CEM and REM....
what I am getting it is good parts run a premium, always did, always will. that what differentiates a shop from "acceptable" to "exceptional"
as jake pointed out, when you have to sit and modify a part for hours (for what should be a 45 minute job) who pays? sure the hell shouldn't be the installers fault, so that gets passed on to the customer. for a healthy "pro built" with the "best parts" 2180 running 6,7,8,000 for what, maybe 200h/p if you're lucky...I don't know. the ends don't justify the means anymore
I would rather pull the interior out of a XC90 and diag a MOST ring than try to put a hood seal on a beetle.
it's sad that 2 mediocre companies joined forces. I can assure you that the strong one won't bring the weak one up to par, but rather the weak one will destroy the reputation of strong one.
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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