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Bloku Expert Noob
Joined: April 09, 2013 Posts: 559 Location: Tulsa/Jenks Oklahoma
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Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:38 pm Post subject: 1971 Ball Joint IRS Ghia Handling Improvement? |
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Hello again all! Recently I have been wanting to make my ghia handle much better than how it does now (stock ). I am just looking to throw it into a corner and come out the other side with a smile! As of now, all my ghia has are dropped spindles (that I would like to keep because I love how it looks).
I know that tires are a big part in the handling department so here is what I am running now:
Front: 175/55 (biggest I can with dropped spindles)
Rear: 185/65
Stock everything else. Even the front little sway bar (pencil sized lol)
What can I do to make this thing handle? I want this thing to stick! Also, how much will my handling decrease with using a stock beam narrowed by 2" with new cores? Also, want to get 5.5 8 spoke empi rims
How do you think this list can be improved
front-
175/55's
5.5" - 8 spoke empi
3/4" sway bar
2" narrowed stock beam with new cores and adjusters
some adjustable gas shocks
dropped spindles
1" drop from current height
rear-
5.5" - 8 spoke empi
205/55 (or 205/60)
adjustable spring plates
3/4" sway bar
1" drop from current height
other -
new steering box
have already replaced the tie rods
I need to replace the ball joints
some other seats would really help the over all feel
Also a link to some specs to set the toe and the camber would really help
Thanks for all the help that this place gives! Thanks all
How it sits now (p.s. i have a baffle with the stinger for those who hate the stinger ) -
_________________ 1971 Karmann Ghia
1975 Porsche 914
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1975 BMW 2002
1976 BMW 2002 (Bored and Stroked w/ 5-Speed)
1981 BMW E21
1986 Toyota 4Runner (Dead engine and trans)
1989 Toyota 4x4 PU
1994 BMW E36 (Daily) |
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mlhsquared Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2008 Posts: 1482 Location: Strasburg, VA
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Here is the best primer on type one suspensions that I have read:
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=127619
It covers both Swing Axle and IRS, but there is a lot of great information there. Enjoy your reading! _________________ Mike
'67 Ghia Coupe |
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-Zodiac- Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2014 Posts: 782 Location: Pensacola/milton, florida
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Just add power steering!
_________________ 1973 karmann ghia - current, not the last VW.
1947 Chevy stylemaster - gone, but not forgotten.
1995 Ford F-150 - gone, hatred for it lives. |
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scotty timmerman Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2010 Posts: 1000 Location: gigharbor W.A
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Bloku Expert Noob
Joined: April 09, 2013 Posts: 559 Location: Tulsa/Jenks Oklahoma
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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scotty timmerman wrote: |
i just put in a 2 in narrowed beam with drop spindles front and rear 3/4 in sway bars. its lowered a inch in the rear by re indexing the torsion bars. wheels are are 15 X 5.5 centerlines with 195 50 tires all around. After i did the narrowed beam, drop spindles and sway bars the handling improved a ton. |
Looks good! How does it compare to some other cars that you have driven? Sorry, I just dont have something to base it off of lol _________________ 1971 Karmann Ghia
1975 Porsche 914
-----
1975 BMW 2002
1976 BMW 2002 (Bored and Stroked w/ 5-Speed)
1981 BMW E21
1986 Toyota 4Runner (Dead engine and trans)
1989 Toyota 4x4 PU
1994 BMW E36 (Daily) |
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Bloku Expert Noob
Joined: April 09, 2013 Posts: 559 Location: Tulsa/Jenks Oklahoma
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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-Zodiac- wrote: |
Just add power steering!
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woah! what is the story on that? more pics?
Thank you! Really helped out! _________________ 1971 Karmann Ghia
1975 Porsche 914
-----
1975 BMW 2002
1976 BMW 2002 (Bored and Stroked w/ 5-Speed)
1981 BMW E21
1986 Toyota 4Runner (Dead engine and trans)
1989 Toyota 4x4 PU
1994 BMW E36 (Daily) |
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-Zodiac- Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2014 Posts: 782 Location: Pensacola/milton, florida
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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this is the thread - http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=497229&highlight=
unfortunately there isn't any info, or more pics on it. plus he hasn't been active since 2012
Pretty bad ass idea though, huh? not that VW's really need it - if you search google it isn't a very popular thing, apparently there is a company called howe that makes a kit http://www.pacificcustoms.com/ac425130kit.html maybe you can go up to the junkyard and use some creative engineering _________________ 1973 karmann ghia - current, not the last VW.
1947 Chevy stylemaster - gone, but not forgotten.
1995 Ford F-150 - gone, hatred for it lives. |
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Bloku Expert Noob
Joined: April 09, 2013 Posts: 559 Location: Tulsa/Jenks Oklahoma
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Cool idea yes, but i would never want that in my car! So many hoses lol! _________________ 1971 Karmann Ghia
1975 Porsche 914
-----
1975 BMW 2002
1976 BMW 2002 (Bored and Stroked w/ 5-Speed)
1981 BMW E21
1986 Toyota 4Runner (Dead engine and trans)
1989 Toyota 4x4 PU
1994 BMW E36 (Daily) |
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Bloku Expert Noob
Joined: April 09, 2013 Posts: 559 Location: Tulsa/Jenks Oklahoma
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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On the shoptalk thread about prepping a kg it said "If you're not racing, you can still add chassis stiffness by welding on braces under the floor pan, in the jack pickup point area, similar to what VW did for its convertibles. Here you'll have to improvise. The braces need to be at least two feet long." Does anyone have some info about this. It reminds me of the miata my father has. It was missing the chassis bolts and corned ok. Fixed the bolts (put in new ones) and the car handled much better. _________________ 1971 Karmann Ghia
1975 Porsche 914
-----
1975 BMW 2002
1976 BMW 2002 (Bored and Stroked w/ 5-Speed)
1981 BMW E21
1986 Toyota 4Runner (Dead engine and trans)
1989 Toyota 4x4 PU
1994 BMW E36 (Daily) |
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didget69 Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2004 Posts: 4927 Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
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Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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Narrowing the beam shortens the torsions & stiffens the front to some extent.
Chassis stiffeners - http://evhcompany.com/Ghia.html
bnc _________________ I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door. |
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Lo Cash John Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004 Posts: 2246 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:51 am Post subject: |
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Those look nice!! For those with welding and fabricating abilities they'd be easy to make. _________________ www.LoCashRacing.org
More brains than bucks...Believe it or not!!
If you actually drive your VW, you need www.AirMapp.com
My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone. |
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SoCalJes Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2011 Posts: 1093 Location: Broward, FL
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:21 am Post subject: |
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I really don't see how that is stiffening anything on a one piece body where the floor pan is bolted all around the edge. _________________ Jesse
71 Ghia
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Just because it didn't come that way, doesn't mean it shouldn't have. |
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didget69 Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2004 Posts: 4927 Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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SoCalJes wrote: |
I really don't see how that is stiffening anything on a one piece body where the floor pan is bolted all around the edge. |
It basically adds another closed box structure underneath the rockers/heater channels. A similar effect occurs when Ghia coupe bodies have heater channels/rockers rebuilt & have the Convertible Ghia stiffener added internally.
bnc _________________ I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door. |
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rockerarm Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009 Posts: 3552 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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This is a topic that is welcomed by many. I think it needs to be asked, and addressed by the responders, what are the expectations of the poster (IE: full street drivable to track us) as there will be compromises with the choices.
Personally, I prefer a balance that meets my needs, which would be street drivable but uprated handling with current SoCal road conditions. I like the use of the 914 steel wheels, especially in the back where body clearance could be. Sure, these oem wheels are difficult to find but there are still people welding them up to a customers specs. (With these wheels I use stock lug bolts. I have seen some aftermarket wheels where lugs don't get full thread depth).
Some many question the use of a rear bar, as this could cause more oversteer. On a lower speed autocross may be ok but on a street car at high speeds may be too much. But they are cheap and easy to R&R.
Hope this helps, Bill. |
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CiderGuy Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2013 Posts: 1351 Location: Bucks County, Pa
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Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Lo Cash John wrote: |
Those look nice!! For those with welding and fabricating abilities they'd be easy to make. |
I sent an email to evh company about this product, for the Ghia they want $750.00 for those stiffeners...... a little too rich for my blood for what it is. _________________ ----------------------
Cars Currently Owned:
1970 Karmann Ghia Coupe
1973 Karmann Ghia Coupe - Project car for sale
1970 Karmann Ghia Convertible (Body off restoration)
Timing is everything |
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Kaygee Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2007 Posts: 138 Location: WNC
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Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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FJCamper on that shoptalkforum link is the one to pay attention to.
I can't believe that a narrowed front beam has benefits although it may feel stiffer. (that what she said?) |
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rockerarm Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009 Posts: 3552 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Hi. I rethought my last post and wanted to add something. I have read and fully believe the concept that tires would be the best single improvement in a car's handling.
Long time ago, I bought a '69 squareback and was driving it home on Los Angeles' freeways. An idiot jumped from the fast lane over to an exit and I had to make a quick steering change to avoid him. This car was all stock and had 4 Semperit fabric radials. The oversteer took 6 months off my life that day. Fast forward and I was at a swap meet and saw this old guy selling used tires. I recognized a popular tread pattern and asked about the pair. They were Pirelli CN36, 185/70VR15, tires and were 60% worn out. I got them and mounted them on a pair of 914 steel wheels, 5 1/2"wide, onto the rear. That type 3 would not oversteer on even somewhat aggressive driving. This car prior to this handled like a boat in water! Now, total confidence with no other modifications.
I think if one was to google something like "effects slip angles have on car handling", there is some good reading to be applied to even street driven cars.
Hope this helps, Bill. |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17285 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 11:58 am Post subject: Re: 1971 Ball Joint IRS Ghia Handling Improvement? |
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Bloku wrote: |
Also, want to get 5.5 8 spoke empi rims |
Have you ever wondered why you don't see too many Karmann Ghias with EMPI 8s? You see lots of Beetles. It's because the EMPI 8 has the wrong offset to work on a Ghia. IOW, your tire size will be very limited with those wheels. A 205 on the rear won't fit with an 8 spoke.
You do see a lot of 4 lug Fuchs on Ghias because of their larger offset. Any of the 914 wheels fit well.
Bloku wrote: |
front-
175/55's
rear-
205/55 (or 205/60) |
This is also a bad mismatch of tire sizes. They are too far apart. A 185/55 is a lot better for the front. _________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Bloku Expert Noob
Joined: April 09, 2013 Posts: 559 Location: Tulsa/Jenks Oklahoma
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Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Humm really? Would the front's grip and the back's grip be too different? What about some 195s? It would fit better also. I looked a bit at offset and so forth and noticed the thing about the empi 8s. What about 4 lug sprintstars? How are those in the handling world? they would be 5.5" rims. Thanks for the help! _________________ 1971 Karmann Ghia
1975 Porsche 914
-----
1975 BMW 2002
1976 BMW 2002 (Bored and Stroked w/ 5-Speed)
1981 BMW E21
1986 Toyota 4Runner (Dead engine and trans)
1989 Toyota 4x4 PU
1994 BMW E36 (Daily) |
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kurt912 Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2014 Posts: 158 Location: The Woodlands Tx
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Posted: Mon May 25, 2015 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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Are you happy with the balance as is? Or do you want more understeer? Or more oversteer? But with an IRS rear there isn't too much oversteer to mitigate anyway. I believe the Shop Talk forum thread is your best source of information. That guy knows what he's talking about.
Personally I find some oversteer more fun than understeer or "perfect 50/50 weight distribution". _________________ 1964 MG Midget MK1 Monte Carlo Replica
1969 Karmann Ghia Coupe
1972 Mercedes 250 Coupe |
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