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jl_1303 Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006 Posts: 569
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Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 3:24 am Post subject: |
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When I was trying to work out the oil temp problem last week, I tried replacing the intake manifold gasket on the 1st 2nd cylinder side as the old one was leaking bad. I believe the leak was fixed.
Thereafter, when I was trying to re-adjust the idle speed and LBIs, the idle speed went down from about 900-950 rpm to about 700 rpm and then after about 30 seconds or so, it died.
I spent a few hours on the car today and have confirmed that the dropping of the idle speed was that I was running on 3 cylinders only. For some reasons, #1 cylinder was not fired.
I tried to eliminate the cause of that, by 1st checking if the 1st cylinder was clogged up. I swapped to a known good Dell 48, problem did not get fixed.
I tried to swap the 1st cylinder ignition wire using the one for the 2nd cylinder, no change.
I checked the distributor cap and found that cylinder #1 and #2 had corrosion on the brass connection inside. Swapped out with a new cap, no change.
Changed to a known good Unilite distributor altogether, no change.
Pulled the spark plug wire from #1 cylinder and stick a spark plug to check if the plug was giving the spark. Started the engine and the plug was giving spark.
Though the installed plug might have been fouled. Changed to a new spark plug twice, no change.
Any ideas what this could be? |
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jl_1303 Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006 Posts: 569
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Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:02 am Post subject: |
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An update:
I kept thinking about the matter over the weekend and felt that it might have been the intake manifold gasket (I cut using some thick cardboard) was not sealing properly. I took the manifold out today and match the manifold using proper fibre gasket. I used split washers to tighten the manifold to the head and was pretty sure that it would seal this time.
I started the motor and found that it did not help. Cylinder #1 was still not firing. Idle speed was about 680-710 and jumping around.
I then opened the valve cover and found that one of the valve adjusting cup screws of the Berg 1.4 ratio rocker, the one for the #1 cylinder exhaust valve, was broken and barely hanging on the rocker by the jam nut.
Also, the #1 cylinder cup screw for the intake was showing some knock damages.
My guestimate is that the jam nut for the #1 cylinder exhaust valve has for some reasons come loose and that caused the exhaust valve to close more often than it should. As a result, the proper air/fuel mixture of #1 cylinder could not be maintained (as the correct amount of air could not be drawn into the chamber), hence the #1 cylinder not being fired.
This is what I think happened. What do you think? |
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jl_1303 Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006 Posts: 569
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Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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I replaced the 2 said cup screws with new ones, adjusted all valve clearances for the 4 cylinders, the #1 cylinder is still not firing.
Here is a summary of the problem:
#1 cylinder is not firing
-intake manifold gasket changed to ensure there is not vacuum leak (tested by spraying carb cleaner around the manifold), no change
-plug changed 2 times with new ones, no change
-plug wire replaced with a new piece, no change
-the Dell 45 was changed to a known good Dell 48, no change
-valve clearance readjusted, no change
-distributor changed to another Unilite, no change
One thing I do noticed, after starting the engine for this many times, is that I think when the engine is cold, #1 cylinder may have fired for a very short time, like less than 1 minute, as the idle speed was like close to 900 rpm was observed. However, when I tried to rev the engine a bit more, it would drop down to idle at about 650 rpm for a little while (1 min or 2) and died.
I am thinking about proceeding to measure the valve lift as well as compression test, but frankly I am running out of ideas.
Any other suggestions? Thanks for your help. |
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MURZI Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005 Posts: 5063 Location: Madisonville, La
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Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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It is possible you have lost the cam.....hence the excessive lash causing the rocker adjuster damage. What did the rockers on number three look like? Even a visual comparison of rocker movement from 1 to 2 should apparent if the cam has gone away. _________________ 62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam |
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jl_1303 Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006 Posts: 569
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Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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MURZI wrote: |
It is possible you have lost the cam.....hence the excessive lash causing the rocker adjuster damage. What did the rockers on number three look like? Even a visual comparison of rocker movement from 1 to 2 should apparent if the cam has gone away. |
That is a possibility. Are you suggesting that in the case the cam is flattened, it would also affect cylinder #3?
I would need to get another friend of mine to come along over the weekend to check the rocker movement, as what you suggested. |
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jl_1303 Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006 Posts: 569
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Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW, I used Wisemann lifters with the Engle FK8 cam.
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MURZI Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005 Posts: 5063 Location: Madisonville, La
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Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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Yes the cam could have lost a lobe. Did you use a ZDDP additive at break in? Did you do the 20 mins at 2000 rpm deal? This could also explain the high oil temps. Two metals rubbing together that are not in "harmony" will cause some heat. Did you have to screw an adjuster in way more than others ....less threads showing on top of jam nut? Did you have glitter in the oil? Grey sludge on oil drain plug?? _________________ 62 vert
2276
Tim’s welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam
Last edited by MURZI on Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002 Posts: 12785 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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The last time I did this the W110 went flat.
jl_1303 wrote: |
FWIW, I used Wisemann lifters with the Engle FK8 cam.
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jl_1303 Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006 Posts: 569
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Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:32 am Post subject: |
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Is Udo Becker Lifters a good choice for the FK8? |
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neil68 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007 Posts: 3440 Location: Calgary, Canada
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Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:07 pm Post subject: Wizemann Lifters |
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jl_1303 wrote: |
FWIW, I used Wisemann lifters with the Engle FK8 cam.
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Very nice! I used a set of vintage Wizemann lifters (same box as yours) with my FK8 many years ago in my 2017 cc. You can actually re-use Wizemann lifters with "some" other camshafts, as they are very durable (I'm keeping mine for future use). _________________ Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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jl_1303 Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006 Posts: 569
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Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Wizemann Lifters |
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[quote="neil68"]
jl_1303 wrote: |
FWIW, I used Wisemann lifters with the Engle FK8 cam.
Very nice! I used a set of vintage Wizemann lifters (same box as yours) with my FK8 many years ago in my 2017 cc. You can actually re-use Wizemann lifters with "some" other camshafts, as they are very durable (I'm keeping mine for future use). |
Neil, I suppose your FK8 did not go flat when these lifters were used. Were your heads double springs at the time? |
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neil68 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2007 Posts: 3440 Location: Calgary, Canada
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Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Wizemann Lifters |
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[quote="jl_1303"]
neil68 wrote: |
jl_1303 wrote: |
FWIW, I used Wisemann lifters with the Engle FK8 cam.
Very nice! I used a set of vintage Wizemann lifters (same box as yours) with my FK8 many years ago in my 2017 cc. You can actually re-use Wizemann lifters with "some" other camshafts, as they are very durable (I'm keeping mine for future use). |
Neil, I suppose your FK8 did not go flat when these lifters were used. Were your heads double springs at the time? |
The Engle FK8 did NOT go flat, in fact I still have it and will probably re-use it some day, after I've had my fill of racing _________________ Neil.
Der Kleiner Rennwagens
68 Beetle 2332 cc, 204 WHP
12.5 seconds @ 107 mph
Dynojet Test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9B_H3eklAo |
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jl_1303 Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006 Posts: 569
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Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:50 am Post subject: |
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This morning, I tried to measure the valve lift with a dial indicator gauge, only to find that the scale o f the gauge I brought was too small for this exercise (the gauge only had a 10mm swing).
Anyway, I am pretty sure that the cam lobe for #1 cylinder has gone flat it has 3-4 threads of the cup screws off the jam nuts, both intake and exhaust, whereas the ones for the #2 cylinder has only less than, or barely, 1 threads off the jam nuts, on both intake and exhaust. The difference was pretty apparent.
At this pt of time, the only move I could make is to prepare myself to drop and tear down the engine, to replace the lifters and cam with new ones.
In that light, I have the following questions I need your help with:
1. Should I reuse the cam bearing?
2. Where can I buy a pre-notched FK8?
3. Should I go for Udo Becker lifters this time to play safe, or there are other lifters that you could recommend?
4. I read that Udo Becker lifters do not require breaking-in. Is that the case?
5. Should I use a new grand nut?
6. What other aspects should I look out for when I tear down the engine and put it back together after replacing the cam and lifters?
Thanks for your help. |
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fivelugshortaxle Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011 Posts: 4254 Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:07 am Post subject: |
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jl_1303 wrote: |
This morning, I tried to measure the valve lift with a dial indicator gauge, only to find that the scale o f the gauge I brought was too small for this exercise (the gauge only had a 10mm swing).
Anyway, I am pretty sure that the cam lobe for #1 cylinder has gone flat it has 3-4 threads of the cup screws off the jam nuts, both intake and exhaust, whereas the ones for the #2 cylinder has only less than, or barely, 1 threads off the jam nuts, on both intake and exhaust. The difference was pretty apparent.
At this pt of time, the only move I could make is to prepare myself to drop and tear down the engine, to replace the lifters and cam with new ones.
In that light, I have the following questions I need your help with:
1. Should I reuse the cam bearing?
2. Where can I buy a pre-notched FK8?
3. Should I go for Udo Becker lifters this time to play safe, or there are other lifters that you could recommend?
4. I read that Udo Becker lifters do not require breaking-in. Is that the case?
5. Should I use a new grand nut?
6. What other aspects should I look out for when I tear down the engine and put it back together after replacing the cam and lifters?
Thanks for your help. |
Udo Becker lifters do not require a break in....but....the cam still does. If I were using tool steel lifters, I would still do the break in procedure. It's only 15 minutes _________________ Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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jl_1303 Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006 Posts: 569
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Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:45 am Post subject: |
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When I was reviewing my stash of parts earlier today. I have come to notice something rather interesting.
I have actually 3 boxes of German lifters, NOS.
Of these 3 boxes, I did not notice until today that they are not the identical.
Both boxes on the left and in the middle are coded 113 109 309 D, but have different date codes. Left is dated '93, the middle '89. Both have a Weco logo
on the outside of the box.
On the right box, the number is 113 109 309 C and as the box is pretty tatty, I just could not find any date code on the box.
This is the inside of the 3 boxes. Notice that only the right ones are wrapped with a piece of paper with Wizemann logo on it. The other 2 boxes do not have any wrapping paper inside.
This is a picture of the actual lifter from each box. The photo may not be apparent but visually the left one and the middle one are very similar in color and are much lighter than the right one.
The profile for the left and the middle one are very similar, although not exactly identical, and very different than the one on the right.
This is view inside the top hole where the push rod rides. Notice the left/middle one are very much different than the one on the right.
Judging by the feel and precision of the pieces, I'd say the dark ones on the right are of better quality than the other 2.
Now I am not sure which ones the engine builder used for this engine build. |
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fivelugshortaxle Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011 Posts: 4254 Location: Aumsville, Oregon
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Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:40 am Post subject: |
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I think the black ones should be good.....not sure. Somebody here should be able to tell you more about them. _________________ Good things come to those who wait.
2332 with lots of goodies....
Rotating assembly balanced by Brothers VW
4340 84mm crank
AA 94mm p&c' s
Total seal 2nd ring, rest are Grants
5.5 h beams
Magnum straight cuts
Steve Long XR310 on a 106
CB 1.4 rockers
CB Magnaspark 2 distributor
NGK D7ea plugs
A1 lowdown 1 3/4 with single muffler
Dellorto 48's with 40 venturies
Kennedy Stage 2 with Daiken disc |
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Bruce Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003 Posts: 17285 Location: Left coast, Canada
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Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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jl_1303 wrote: |
Anyway, I am pretty sure that the cam lobe for #1 cylinder has gone flat it has 3-4 threads of the cup screws off the jam nuts, both intake and exhaust, whereas the ones for the #2 cylinder has only less than, or barely, 1 threads off the jam nuts, on both intake and exhaust. The difference was pretty apparent. |
This does not mean your cam is gone. It might just be that your pushrods are slightly different in length.
When your cam goes flat, you can't see it in the valve lash because the base circle does not get ground away. Only the tip of the lobe does. That is why you have to measure full lift. _________________
overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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jl_1303 Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006 Posts: 569
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Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:18 am Post subject: |
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Bruce wrote: |
jl_1303 wrote: |
Anyway, I am pretty sure that the cam lobe for #1 cylinder has gone flat it has 3-4 threads of the cup screws off the jam nuts, both intake and exhaust, whereas the ones for the #2 cylinder has only less than, or barely, 1 threads off the jam nuts, on both intake and exhaust. The difference was pretty apparent. |
This does not mean your cam is gone. It might just be that your pushrods are slightly different in length.
When your cam goes flat, you can't see it in the valve lash because the base circle does not get ground away. Only the tip of the lobe does. That is why you have to measure full lift. |
In that respect, at TDC when I adjusted for loose zero, more threads showing on top of the jam nuts would mean the cam (at its lowest lobe) to cup distance has decreased, provided the push rods lengths are the same. If they are of the same length, then if the cam circle does not get ground away, the lifter top must have been ground away.
Therefore, if I take the push rods out to compare their length, I will then be able to conclude if the lifters/cam is robust or not. Please correct if I am wrong. |
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jl_1303 Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2006 Posts: 569
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Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:33 am Post subject: |
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MURZI wrote: |
Yes the cam could have lost a lobe. Did you use a ZDDP additive at break in? Did you do the 20 mins at 2000 rpm deal? This could also explain the high oil temps. Two metals rubbing together that are not in "harmony" will cause some heat. Did you have to screw an adjuster in way more than others ....less threads showing on top of jam nut? Did you have glitter in the oil? Grey sludge on oil drain plug?? |
As opposed to less threads seen, I have more threads on top of the jam nuts showing for the #1 cylinder, to maintain the loose zero adjustment.
On the other hand, at the time when I opened the valve cover to discover the broken cup screw for the exhaust valve of #1 cylinder, I remember very clearly that there was an obvious gap b/w the cup screw and the push rod when I laid my fingers on it.
For the last 2 oil changes, an layer of grey sludge on the sump plate was observed on both occasions. However, I did not see any glitters. |
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Downtown Brown Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2004 Posts: 368 Location: Humboldt Nation
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Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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jl_1303 wrote: |
MURZI wrote: |
Yes the cam could have lost a lobe. Did you use a ZDDP additive at break in? Did you do the 20 mins at 2000 rpm deal? This could also explain the high oil temps. Two metals rubbing together that are not in "harmony" will cause some heat. Did you have to screw an adjuster in way more than others ....less threads showing on top of jam nut? Did you have glitter in the oil? Grey sludge on oil drain plug?? |
As opposed to less threads seen, I have more threads on top of the jam nuts showing for the #1 cylinder, to maintain the loose zero adjustment.
On the other hand, at the time when I opened the valve cover to discover the broken cup screw for the exhaust valve of #1 cylinder, I remember very clearly that there was an obvious gap b/w the cup screw and the push rod when I laid my fingers on it.
For the last 2 oil changes, an layer of grey sludge on the sump plate was observed on both occasions. However, I did not see any glitters. |
Looking at your adjusters /rocker pictures I think FK8, Berg 1.40 (1.45 ?) L6 dual springs high RPM a big step up from stock - that brings with it more chance for valve train failures . Besides camshaft/valve trouble and looking at the broken adjuster and the pitted adjuster cup I think of possibilities : 1st comes to mind bad adjuster (from factory) , over tightened adjuster jam nut leading to hair line crack/stretch, maybe interference with stock valve cover. Thinking of push rod to adjuster cup spacing increase possibilities : it could be the 1/2 side rocker hold down nut backing off , I would check pushrods and would check each one that both tips are still round not worn down, that the pushrods are not deforming(mushroomed ends) and are not cracking or bent, I'd check for wear marks. I also use a small torque wrench on high lift valve trains to take out a possible failure reason. Push rods are wear items until you get a combo that works for your valve train , driving style and maintenance schedule ...Doesn't fix your poor running problem but is one more thing to check - I'm always there too --finding the weakest link with each combination. |
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