rear axle axial play and spacers

[Otis2]

As I am replacing brake pads and brake cylinders in the rear there is some axial play among the axles This causes me to wonder wear of the bearings in this '71 tin top Westy axle housing.
If not wear I'd like to pack the bearings as I do the CV joints currently.
Have difficulty getting the spider expander gear off the backplate. Even heat
is not budging the locating pin. Axial play is about 1/64th of inch but is sounds and looks dry.
Any comments I appreciate.

[airschooled]

If you need to get on the road now, check the torque of the rear axle nuts. Get them as tight as you can (safely) with the wheel off the ground. Final torque on the ground, then advance ONLY to next cotter hole. Check play then.

If you don't know the history of the bus, repacking is a great idea, especially if you have the time and four grease seals.

If you're unfamiliar with the process, feel free to ask questions and we'll help out as best we can. The rotating assembly should have no axial play.

Robbie
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[SGKent]

[Wildthings]

[Tcash]

[busdaddy]

Busdaddy guess= "spider expander" means adjuster star. The forging they slide into is part of the backing plate and doesn't coe off without it.
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[Otis2]

Sorry about the 'spider gear'. indeed it's the adjusting star as bussdaddy guesed. So how is one to take the backing plate off?. That's because I want to clean and paint it. The brack cylinder is off and the bolts holding the two adjusting starts are out. I have also not been able to disconnect the E-brake cable housing from the backplate in the back of the plate. Maybe the whole cable has to be retracted to free the assembly. Alternatively I might gently hammer out the axle out of the bearing housing with rubber hammer, as wildthings suggests? Do that with the bearing housing connected to the spring plate for stability, I think. Still, not the workbench and hard to use a press if I need to replace actual bearings. I imagine they are original though the seals are Brazilian made! About pictures, I haven't figured out how to do that with regular dial up which is what I have here in the woods. So some play is Okay?
Thanks for your thoughts and comments.

[Otis2]

To clarify, with the 46 mm nut tied to 245 ftpbs there is this play along the centerline moving in and out. Not side to side as one might check with ball joints. It is clearly a play in the bearing assembly and it sounds dry. Asiab3 clarified, I re-read, there should be no play. So there's the job. Could the spacer be suspect? I kind off doubt it. That means pressing bearing races.
Thanks again.

[airschooled]

[cmonSTART]

[Otis2]

Thanks so much asiab3 especially on the delicacy of 'song' while hammering.
Indeed it gives me confidence to move forward. I have used measurement as an indicator of wear. But in Robert Bentley's I read nothing about actual length of the inner spacer. So will have to observe the two faces on each end for slight groves I imagine. One of the drums is German on the drives side, the other is Mexican. The CV axles are both off at this time. The driver side was a bear to get off as four of the bolts had damaged keys and seemed way too heavy torqued down relative to the other. Turns out the CV joints were nearly dry! On the pass, side the bolts came free with relative ease and the CV joint had been packed not that long ago. The driver side has a German drum, the pass. side a Mexican made. Many hands have worked on this bus in the past 44 years, all this is as much forensic as repair.
Thanks again for the comments, I'll keep you posted.

Bert

[kreemoweet]

It seems to have been overlooked by some that the OP has a '71, and therefore a drum hub and only one spacer sleeve. Axial play
should be limited to the natural play between inner/outer races of the inner ball bearing, which is next to nothing. Untoward axial play is
sometimes caused by circlip failure and inner bearing movement in the bearing housing.

Be aware that if you have the larger 46 mm OD spacer sleeves installed (as I do in my '71) then you will not
be able to disassemble the bearing housing without damaging one of the bearings (unless they just fall out, in which case you have other problems),
because the sleeve cannot be removed from the housing as the earlier/smaller ones could. These are the "new" sleeves mentioned in the diagram
posted above.

The dowel pin on the backing plate needs to be driven out forcefully (inward, to avoid bending the plate). They are sometimes quite difficult
to move.

I have a set of the old 42 mm OD spacer sleeves on hand, and their length iis 42.75 mm. Here's an interesting thread on the subject:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=522454&start=0
CAUTION: clicking on the German link in that thread leads to a rather graphic page selling "sex toys"!
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[Wildthings]

[SGKent]

[Otis2]

The article asiab3 forwarded is indeed most informative; held it on my screen as reference as I dug into it today. I'll spare you the dirt work. I have only an inner circlip after taking out the seals. Both sides had german seals on the inside and brazilian on the outside. Someone greased up the bearings from outside in, I suspect. After taking out the outer inner race bearing I find a spacer ring that will not pass through the opening. Kreemoweet is right! I must have 46 mm spacers. The bearings are in adequate shape, for as much as I can see/inspect them in place. Further the outer bearing is one that retains the rollers with it's outer race.
Reading about the back plate relative to the spacer, I have no rubbing on the drum's inside but the inside seal is clearly deformed. as if pressure is applied to only part of the outward face facing inward towards the engine. Bot sides have the same symptom. So is there a difference in the back plate thickness. I have no way of knowing if I have an original '71 backplate. I have moved on trying to take the bake plate off as it is not deformed, just wanted to clean.....
I will go ahead and punch out both bearings on either side and start over with new bearings. The spacer is still suspect as to it's tube length.
Thanks for the comments and references. they will help identify the problem. I like the idea of stacking components to measure overall length
relative to housing.

Bert

[Otis2]

This what I am finding: after taking the inner race out of the outer roller bearing I could wiggle the spacer such that I could tap the inner ball/thrust bearing out. It slid out! Apparently no actual press fit of the outer race with the bearing housing and the race shows slight evidence of rotation. It's a FAG 6207 Z.B. Germany.The bearing itself looks and feels very good, hardly any wiggle between inner and outer race. The spacer is of the later model 46.1 mm diameter and 42 9/20th mm long with no noticeable wear. The outer roller bearing is a tight fit in the housing but the inner race is rather sloppy though smooth. In all no damaged rollers or and metal found. Grease packing was good. As to initial question, of having axial play even when torqued down, I think that the movement of the outer inner bearing race relative to the bearing housing makes that possible. The circlip prevents that movement inward, towards the engine but there's nothing stopping it away from the engine. So is it the housing that's worn or the inner bearing? I read some have used locktight to 'freeze' the outer race to the housing as an alternative. That seems rather radical and a night mare getting it serviced in the future. And others that just live with the play.
Got to think about this. Thanks for the offer of early model spacers, I'll work with what I have.

Bert

[kreemoweet]

New inner bearings are not very expensive, you could see how some new ones fit in the housing. At any rate, movement of
the outer race in the housing seems like a bad thing that will only exacerbate itself, I would try to stop it by whatever means
I had.
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[Amskeptic]

[Otis2]

'Try stopping the rotating at any cost', thank you both to move forward. Rotation marks are clearly worn into the circlip. So, point well taken Colin,
if I can postpone getting a new bearing housing I will use Locktight blue on the inner bearing outer race 'bonding' it to the housing. I am going to leave the outer bearing in as it is tight and shows now real wear. This means I have to work through the opening provided when the inner race is pulled out of the roller or floater bearing. I think I can do that, packing the housing, inserting the spacer pushing in the inner bearing just so with the circlip. And then as the dickens from the outside through the outer bearing set the inner bearing against the clip with a few taps on the spacer.
Thank you all, I got a plan!

Bert

[Otis2]

Progress report, or lack there of! In a major breach of sequential thinking I figured I'd have to clean the excess locktight on the inside of the bearing housing keeping it as clean as I can muster. Doing such I installed the inner bearing, cleaned of the excess blue stuff and processed to fill the void only to then realize to my panic that I had failed to put the spacer in! It's a 46mm OD kind. Of course I could not have cleaned with it in and all of the grease pack. Try as I may but the bearing is now in there seated and not to be moved lest I slam damage it all to bits! That would be counter the idea that the bearing was much worth saving. So...... I fucked up. Only remedy now appears to be to change to a 42 outer diameter 42.75mm long spacer. Or turn the spacer I have to fit past the rollers of the outer bearing. Kreemoweet, is your offer still standing? I'll buy them from you and move on! But there is a lesson here. These two inner bearings are now in for life the way I experience it, though they may possibly be pressed out with a press. With luck they last a long time and with the 42 OD spacer I may have to tend to grease jobs more frequent to make it all last. Humble pie.


Bert