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IRS Transaxle Rebuild
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oldschool5er
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally would not use the 1st gear and probably not the associated hub. The shim is worn and it needs to be all set back up with the correct running clearance. 1st gear bearing race is suspect looks like something I would not use. For me it is always better to hold stuff in my hand to examine or mic it out other than seeing photos although your photos are good. Closeup Photos of the 3rd syncro hub teeth and second gear teeth would be great but they look like they are good from the photos it gives me the indication that the trans had been gone through before. Make sure to take the selector rods out of the intermediate housing to check the bores including the bearing bore. I have seen too many fine tooth gears stripped out to use them. I have studied the rationale of using them and understand why people use them but I have just seen too many that failed so I just can't use them. Probable the transmission had been rebuilt before without the correct running clearance set.
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Last edited by oldschool5er on Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,
Everything that I've read says you want the thrust clearnaces on 1st set towards the high side to get oil in. Third gear and the circlip it looks like the trick is machining the shaft and gear to use two thin clips and get the clearance to exactly zero.

The diff you want to set towards the tight end of the tolerance, tight but not too tight to not let enough oil in while driving down the highway.

1st and 2nd on the mainshaft you want to use the metal caged bearings from earlier trans as the needle bearings are longer.

The same goods for 3rd and 4th on the pinion shaft, except you use the early metal caged for both. On 3rd with the 9 tooth shaft you have to use a dremel to make it a split bearing to go over the shaft splines and get to the area where the bearing should sit.

Oldschool5er,
Luckily I am finding a lot better bearings in another transaxle along with a better hub. Seeing other parts lets me see how much these are worn out. I have one more trans to tear apart that was just rebuilt so I should find a lot of good parts in it.
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oldschool5er
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always good to have extra cores to tear down lol. You tear down alot these days to find acceptable parts, in the 70's most of the cores still had great stuff inside.
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey timmy when the shims go away ( from fretting as they do not see any rotation on either side)what happens to the thrust clearance??? it go's away too!!!from the springy pushing it all tward the pinion when the shims got wore down so.......thats the tight 3rd gear clip to keep fretting down to a min. I have mine in there tight and a washer machined to the clip od so the clip cant spread. yes I know about the bearings. I also added a thrust shim to first gear between the gear and the pinion bearing, machined the gear down the thickness of the thrust shim(1mm as I recall and it's a very hard shim out of a diff)and I have .008" clearance. I didnt like the pinion bearing getten thrusted uppon and scored as it was.so...I "fixed it"...or not.Ill find out when I finish this build. I has scott weld me up some gears, he did an exelent job and even sent a "T" shirt, great service. many thanks.
at some point if I get some old dead gears Ill give a try welding them my self.but I dont experament like that on good parts.
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How much weld did he put on them? I've really wondered if you just need a few little spots to get it done right.

I really don't understand the welding thing as you'd think after a little spinning it would weld itself on tight.

I'm going to see what parts I have around here that are good and then find out what I have that isn't good and then go from there. Hopefully it's a small order list from Weddle and I won't feel like I am buying a complete transaxle.
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my pinion shaft tear down on a different transaxle as I am searching for parts. This one had some good parts with it, that hub and first gear race look great out of this one.

Pinion shaft disassembl needs a us shaped tool to press down on the gear to compress the spring to allow lock ring removal. I just barely get the gear to move and I don't try to compress the spring a whole lot. One pinion shaft I took apart the gear and race had to be pulled off as the spring couldn't puch them off. I just made sure not to point it at my face incase the spring decided to change it's mind and push everything off.

Once you get the race, fourth, and that spring off you get to the lock rings I have a terrible time with...really hate these skinny ones.

After that you can pull it all off until you have small pinion nut holding on the 1st gear bearing and race and pinion bearing. I have an old VW tool I bought from a swap for $10 and an old third gear with the teeth ground down on one side for my pipe wrench. Actually got the pipe wrench for free from a guy I used to work with and no one likes the fine tooth gears, so a cheap set up for taking them apart.

Pressing off the pinion bearing is a little tricky as the bearing spreader I have doesn't fir the best. I have to make sure it's clocked into the gear first before putting it into the press. I actually pressed the housing first so I could get closer into the teeth to see how it was going to happen.

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mcmscott
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

f you press the outer race off first then the last half of the bearing it makes it easier
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, I'll do that on the next one.
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I milled flats on a fine toothed 3rd gear for holding in a big vise,got the tool from prescott for the nut, works great. milling the teeth flat was a chore,they sure are hard and dont like being machined down.
I wonder why my 3rd&4th gears wernt labeled like yours..... my old fine tooth 3rd was a slip fit on pinion, the new gear is a tight fit,darn tight fit.and it was .0005 thiner than the fine tooth gear (OAL) so all the shimming I had done was still good to go, nicentight, just acorss the road from guttentight neer the nuremberg ring of the lords.
I may look into making a diff setting tool to mesure the shim thickness like the vw tool.dosent look to be all that hard to build.
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can do diff preload by bolting it all together and see how far the one cover pops off with a feeler gage to determine preload, or just do the turning torque by using a wood dowel to lock your diff from spinning internally.

Making the factory tool would be cool though, but I think the guys that do it all the time measure preload pop off with the Baja cars or measure turning torque just by hand when doing the diff.

That is the good thing about taking a few transaxles apart I now have some diff shims to pick from.
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just ordered a double beam style 1/4 dr in-lb torque wrench off amazon to start doingmy turning torque with.
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes I know how to mesure like that, just howmany thou for new bearings&how many for used bearin gs to get the preload/ turning tq right? and with case flex,and std cover vs hd cover...... a good starting point is needed. and being able to adjust backlash easy by turning the handle&watching the indacator's I kinda like. Ive done many diffs in race cars and street cars, and a few vetts and a few std cars/trucks.but thats many years gone by.
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Boolean
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did the first few pinion bearings with a torque tool, but quickly felt the correct drag with my hand instead.
Not having done it for 20 years, I would use a tool again to begin with.
If you are unsure, use the tooling and knowledge available.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember when you could find a 1/4" beam tqwrench almost everywhere for $10. now I cant seem to see them anywhere, Id rather have a good dial unit ,but for now Ill
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would prefer a dial unit too, but I couldn't find a price I wanted to pay for one. I just couldn't justify or afford something that I wouldn't ever really use. Hopefully I can use the one I bought building a better box for my car after its running or helping people out.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=100259
good discussion about pinion nuts and torquing them.


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=143976
good discussion about 3-4 snychro rings
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got the pinion shaft started, now waiting on parts. I used a hot plate to expand the bearings. Super easy to install as they just fall on this way.

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Bruce
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you still need to put it in the press to make sure it's down tight.
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I will do that tomorrow.

What is the best way to heat the case? or do you not heat it to put the pinion bearing in?? I have 2 or 3 cases to pick from for this build. I want to use my bore gauge to look at all the pinion bores.

Going to take the case and carrier I pick to my local shop to put in their steamer or whatever they use for the cases to get it really nice and clean.
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Bruce
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since the pinion bearing's inner races and the pinion shaft are so hard, pressing the bearing on cold won't hurt either. The press fit will still be there after several re&res. Be careful heating the bearings on your hot plate. If they turn blue, they are junk.

The trans case is different. The Mg is so soft that repeated pressing in and out will quickly wear the bore so it's loose. That's why heating the case is an absolute must. I use my 1500W heat gun.
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Last edited by Bruce on Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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