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IRS Transaxle Rebuild
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mcmscott
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Casting Timmy wrote:
Good point. I did it both ways and was checkin to make sure the synchro a didn't bind it up when added.

What do you think about .007 on second gear for a street machine? I am looking for a 160hp with my motor and want to build this to handle that.


How often do you see second gear burned? Mostly never, how often first? Quite often. Second can be tighter than first, down to about .004, no less, is ok. Remember the key here is zero clearance on the third gear snapring. Any clearance here affects your 1-2 settings.
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mcmscott
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmscott wrote:
Casting Timmy wrote:
Good point. I did it both ways and was checkin to make sure the synchro a didn't bind it up when added.

What do you think about .007 on second gear for a street machine? I am looking for a 160hp with my motor and want to build this to handle that.


How often do you see second gear burned? Mostly never, how often first? Quite often. Second can be tighter than first, down to about .004, no less, is ok. Remember the key here is zero clearance on the third gear snapring. Any clearance here affects your 1-2 settings.


Oh. and horse power has nothing to do with it. Imagine a 200 hp v-8 behind it in a 4000 pound car, gonna brake pretty fast. Then imagine a 300 horse 2 cylinder 2 stroke in a 650 pound dragster on dry assphault with the tires at 45 pounds. Never gonna hurt it. Rating transmissions by horsepower is a selling gimmick, nothing more. It is like rating your dick by how many ribs you see on your condem
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Scott. I'll leave second as is and wait to see third when the lock rings come in. I saw our trick of usin two washers and machining third to get a perfect zero. I'll do that unless it magically falls into a standard shim. Or is it better to use two lock rings??

Thanks again to everyone taking time I help me with this. My next order of parts should be here Wednesday I believe.
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have 2 hard shims I machined to fit under my lock ring(the thinnest clip weddle had for it) it had about .003 interfearance.and tight to get the clip in then I took the washe that comes with the bugpoop spacer and under cut it the size of the lockring/clip on the shaft so the clip could not expand/come out of the groove.the spacer sits on top the washer (inter fearance fit on the spacer too and had to be pressed on). you need to use hardened shims under the lockring/clip so they dont fret away/deform. The old clips that were on there have a good impression of the splines. thats my take on that portion and my mod. I wish it had the nut on the end of the pinion, but Ill just shim it tight too.
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

are there any mods or updated mesurements/adjustments for the late style reverse linkage/gear?any thing inpaticular to look for?
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think modok posted something once about making new pins to take the slop out. I think I remember reading somewhere else about adjusting the eyebolt to get it working better.

It sounds like it's a see what happens and fix your specific problems from everything I've read. There are tricks that work, but nothing guarentees success as it depends on the individual box you're working on.
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modok
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I made a .002 oversize peg for the arm and honed out the eye bolt to fit it tight, and welded up and fixed the joint where the arm meets the shift rod.
Al done with MIG, HA! LOL

I didn't know if it would make any difference........it made a huge improvement!
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

weddle makes reverse gears,I would of got one of those if I didnt already have a old nos gear(and new nos 1/2 slider).Ill go over this entire system good and check all specs&do what I can. the trans that had the dead gear seems to have the least amount of slop in it all. but it was noisy as hell when I got it so no telling what it had been through before me.Im wondering if I should dfl coat the gear and the rev shift thingy.there probably too hard. Ill just have to limit reverse burnouts to a minimum.
I also found I have 2 diferent reverse drive gears&gear/shaft coupler.is there a better one to use?
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll load pictures tonight, but I think not wanting to press the pinion bearing and 1st gear race too hard has lead to it not being enough to get bearing preload. I installed everything hot and then after it cooled I pressed it further into position, it definitely doesn't have any up and down play.

I installed the pinion shaft built up to the nut into my case and torqued and then retorqued the big pinion nut. My turning torque is zero.....is the most likely cause my lack of wanting to press really hard on the assembly?

How hard to you load the press when seating your pinion bearing?

I torqued the small nut to 145ftlbs like the Bentley said and then torqued, loosened, and retorqued the big pinion nut to 160ftlbs. Hopefully my torque wrench isn't off, but it does seem to be about right as it takes some effort to torque it.
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gears
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forget the main case for a moment .. Are you saying the pinion bearing had NO resistance to turning after you pressed it on? Is this a new bearing?
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is a used bearing. The case didn't change the way it feels when rotated.
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yesterday I heated the case with a heat gun slowly until after a few tries I could drop the pinion shaft built up to the small pinion nut into the case. Today I was able to add the washer and large pinion nut to the shaft and tightenit down to 160ftlbs, then loosen it and finally retorque again to 160ftlbs.

I should also mention that my build up the pinion shaft was done by lightly heating everything so it dropped on. Then I pressed it and got some movement. A week or so went by before I had the 1-2 bearing to be able to torque the small pinion nut down. So I put it back into the press, the bearing spun freely but did not have any axial play. I assumed the bearing would get tighter with the press fit of the case.

Today when doing the turning torque it has nothing, you can still spin it easily. It was neat to put my hand on my torque socket and create drag to see what the pinion bearing should be feeling like. A small tap will give a small movement, but it doesn't spin round and round.

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I use a piece of angle iron when torqueing, the only problem is you need to reverse when untorquing the big nut.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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Torquing the case again
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The moment of disappointment...no preload on the torque wrench
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should I try pressing harder, or do you think that used bearing is toast? The races on it looked great, but the rollers had a little wear in the center third. I assumed even a lightly used bearing would show wear due to the preload.

If I have to get a new bearing, which one do you recommend?
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mcmscott
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The torque on that nut has nothing to do with bearing pre-load. A good used bearing will not have much turning resistance, I seldom check for turning resistance
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I didn't realize this was a used bearing. Only new bearings have measurable turning torque (although some Brazilian bearings need a very light internal surface grind to attain preload). A brand new case will add a bit of turning torque, as well (surprising as that may be).

Like Scott said, the nut doesn't really affect preload (even though there's another build thread that suggests otherwise).

Experienced builders have no need to measure exact turning torque of the pinion bearing, as "feel" is more important than what the dial says. Notchy feeling new bearings have to be pressed off (at least part way), whether for a more meticulous cleaning and/or mere reinstallation.

Bolt a longer angle iron onto the bellhousing (lower engine mounting holes), and it can stay in place for tightening or loosening ..
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Scott and Gary, it sounds like I should be okay with this bearing then. I will see about drilling that piece or if I have a longer piece of angle iron. That was a pain to switch it back and forth.

I need to measure my current depth before pressing this out and taking my case to get cleaned. The local machine shop will only charge $10 to run it through their steamer, so I figure that's money well spent.

Excited to get some more parts from Weddle tomorrow! Hopefully one last order with them so I can get the super diff and seals/gaskets and what ever else I forgot!

It's sad, but I really feel like this transaxle is easier and less worry than doing a motor for the car!
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mcmscott
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trans axle is easier than the engine, there is also a lot less to it. I spend more time cleaning than on the actual build. And I also have stuff coming in from Weddle tommorow. You really don't want to know how much money I give them
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think your money is well spent. I got off lightly with having some old nos parts&bearings. you sure can rack up a bill if buying shop stock, (bearings& 3x assortmant of shims or more.) it sure is nice to have everything on hand.I do miss that doing this trans.
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Casting Timmy
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got the pinion shaft put together now. It took a bit to get third done, but I am glad that I did. It first measured .012 of a gap, so I cut the third gear until the second thin clip I had stuck up .012 inches. Then I had to use a punch really lightly to get it in the gap, but third has no movement now. Luckily fourth is really easy.

I played with turning the gears and moving the slider, its pretty neat to feel the synchros grab and see it all working.

Getting tabs put in
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Adding clips with gaps offset side to side
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Adding second gear synchro
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Cutting gear in lathe
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Double thin clip installed
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Installing fourth and getting race in place, can you guess where my drift is from?
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Installing clip
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Finally the pinion shaft is complete!!
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

be carful when grabing 3rd like that in the lathe, you dont want to mar it on the bearing serface.
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