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periscopebill
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 Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 9:21 am Post subject: Marigold- loud/sticking valves? |
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'71 FI Squareback-
I just made the drive from OH-NY yesterday and a little over halfway I noticed after stopping from gas there was a loud clacking sound. I was hoping it was just loose valves, though I had just adjusted them prior to leaving ohio. When I adjusted the valves I was concerned, because my exhaust #3 screw seemed to be bottomed out to get it .006, but after adjusting everything sounded good, and dwell, idle, rpm were spot on. I put 80 miles on it before I left for NY without any issues.
About 3/4 through the trip, I noticed the loud clacking sound after stopping for gas/checking oil. As I was driving I still had plenty of power. After I got off the highway at idle my generator light started flickering as well, and went away when I was driving. I wasn't sure if these were connected? Or just lucky? 
Here's a video of the noise. I checked the valves this morning and, aside from number 3 intake being a little loose, everything else seemed normal. I also didn't want to leave it running too long, in case that would make it worse, though I'm kicking myself, because I really should've stopped driving as soon as I heard it. Not sure if this makes a difference, but it sounds the same as it did yesterday, no better or worse.
Link
Last edited by periscopebill on Sun May 17, 2015 5:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike Fisher
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:46 am Post subject: |
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You might get by with just pulling & fixing the 3/4 head, but you should do both of them before they blow up your whole engine! 
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periscopebill
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Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| You might get by with just pulling & fixing the 3/4 head, but you should do both of them before they blow up your whole engine! |
So is this the sound of a cracked head? |
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Tram
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| periscopebill wrote: |
| Mike Fisher wrote: |
| You might get by with just pulling & fixing the 3/4 head, but you should do both of them before they blow up your whole engine! |
So is this the sound of a cracked head? |
It's the sound of a loose valve from what I am hearing.
I'd remove the valve cover and rocker assembly on that side and see if the head nuts are loose. If they are, see if you can torque them to the proper spec. Unfortunately, you'll need to remove the intake manifold and upper tin to get to the upper nuts. If they're loose, re torque them, adjust the valves, and see how it goes. If one side is loose check the other side also on the lower nuts first.
If the head nuts are NOT loose, pull the pushrods and make sure you don't have a bent one by rolling them on a flat surface.
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periscopebill
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
It's the sound of a loose valve from what I am hearing.
I'd remove the valve cover and rocker assembly on that side and see if the head nuts are loose. If they are, see if you can torque them to the proper spec. Unfortunately, you'll need to remove the intake manifold and upper tin to get to the upper nuts. If they're loose, re torque them, adjust the valves, and see how it goes. If one side is loose check the other side also on the lower nuts first.
If the head nuts are NOT loose, pull the pushrods and make sure you don't have a bent one by rolling them on a flat surface. |
Okay, so I have the rocker assembly pulled, would you just use a torque wrench to check the lower four first? |
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periscopebill
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| I checked the bottom nuts to start, the one to the rear of the engine did turn about 1/8-1/4 turn before my torque wrench clicked. Would you proceed with pulling off the intake manifold and tin? |
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Tram
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| periscopebill wrote: |
| I checked the bottom nuts to start, the one to the rear of the engine did turn about 1/8-1/4 turn before my torque wrench clicked. Would you proceed with pulling off the intake manifold and tin? |
If the other ones were OK I'd pull the push rods and inspect.
Have you verified which side is the source of the noise?
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periscopebill
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
If the other ones were OK I'd pull the push rods and inspect.
Have you verified which side is the source of the noise? |
Yes, all the rest of them were tight. I just pulled the pushrods, none of them show any obvious wear, and just rolled them along the cover of my hardback Bentley. None of them seem to be bent.
The only thing I noticed that might be weird is, does it matter which end of the pushrod tube goes in first? All of them except exhaust 3 had the end with the little hash marks going in first.
The sound is definitely coming from the 3/4 side. |
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Tram
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| periscopebill wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
If the other ones were OK I'd pull the push rods and inspect.
Have you verified which side is the source of the noise? |
Yes, all the rest of them were tight. I just pulled the pushrods, none of them show any obvious wear, and just rolled them along the cover of my hardback Bentley. None of them seem to be bent.
The only thing I noticed that might be weird is, does it matter which end of the pushrod tube goes in first? All of them except exhaust 3 had the end with the little hash marks going in first.
The sound is definitely coming from the 3/4 side. |
The early cars had a 2mm shorter push rod. The later longer rod has the hash marks to differentiate them from the early- early ones. All the pics in the factory manual show the hash marks on the rocker end, but I never had any formal training say that they had to go that way.
Any chance one or both rocker nuts were backing off?
Examine the striking faces of the valve stems for wear. Additionally, examine the adjuster bolt striking surfaces. finally, examine the alignment of the rocker tappet screw to the valve stem and compare to Bentley. They should be a little offset, but not offset too much, and not straight on.
Also, take a straight edge and hold it across the tops of all valve stems on that side with the rocker off. If one stem is shorter than the others, further examine the valve spring keepers. If the corresponding valve spring is compressed more than the others, you may be developing a seat issue. If it's just the stem wearing, there was a factory repair kit for that years ago but I don't know if they are even still available.
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| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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periscopebill
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
The early cars had a 2mm shorter push rod. The later longer rod has the hash marks to differentiate them from the early- early ones. All the pics in the factory manual show the hash marks on the rocker end, but I never had any formal training say that they had to go that way.
Any chance one or both rocker nuts were backing off?
Examine the striking faces of the valve stems for wear. Additionally, examine the adjuster bolt striking surfaces. finally, examine the alignment of the rocker tappet screw to the valve stem and compare to Bentley. They should be a little offset, but not offset too much, and not straight on.
Also, take a straight edge and hold it across the tops of all valve stems on that side with the rocker off. If one stem is shorter than the others, further examine the valve spring keepers. If the corresponding valve spring is compressed more than the others, you may be developing a seat issue. If it's just the stem wearing, there was a factory repair kit for that years ago but I don't know if they are even still available. |
Huh, good to know. Both rocker nuts seemed tight, I loosened them like the Bentley said to do, back and forth. But neither was loose to begin with.
The alignment of rocker to valve seem correct, these were pictures I took early today after the valve adjustment.
The striking faces of the adjuster bolts are a little pitted, and the valve stem faces all look good except exhaust 4, which looks like it has a dip in it from the adjuster bolt. I'm doing photo dump, to see if you see anything I don't.
The straight edge did make it appear as if exhaust 3 is about 1/8" further in than the rest of the stems, which would make sense as to why the adjuster bolt was bottoming out when I was adjusting valves. Here's a picture of that.
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Tram
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Pull the heater box off of #3 and see what you see in there. I think the seat on 3 exh. has an issue.
I've been telling the Type 4 conversion crowd for years that I've never seen a Type 1 head lose a valve seat but this may prove me wrong.
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| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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periscopebill
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
Pull the heater box off of #3 and see what you see in there. I think the seat on 3 exh. has an issue.
I've been telling the Type 4 conversion crowd for years that I've never seen a Type 1 head lose a valve seat but this may prove me wrong. |
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but does that just mean remove the heater box entirely?
I really hope not, and if it does that's super depressing.  |
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W1K1
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
but does that just mean remove the heater box entirely?
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Yes you need to be able to look in the exhaust port to see if the valve has dropped. The other option is pulling the head right off to check it.
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periscopebill
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2015 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| W1K1 wrote: |
| Yes you need to be able to look in the exhaust port to see if the valve has dropped. The other option is pulling the head right off to check it. |
Gotcha, thank you! |
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D/A/N
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| periscopebill wrote: |
| W1K1 wrote: |
| Yes you need to be able to look in the exhaust port to see if the valve has dropped. The other option is pulling the head right off to check it. |
Gotcha, thank you! |
3 known Squarebacks in Brooklyn and none of them are drivers (yours, mine, that painted up one)!!! There needs to be a support group for us poor souls..
Also sucks about that head.....it's not even original, so it's not as if it's the OG head finally giving up the ghost or something  .
Make sure to loosen up the exhaust on that head too when pulling off the heater box. Often, you'll need to fuss around with the box and the muffler to get the pipes lined up when reinstalling. |
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periscopebill
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
| periscopebill wrote: |
| W1K1 wrote: |
| Yes you need to be able to look in the exhaust port to see if the valve has dropped. The other option is pulling the head right off to check it. |
Gotcha, thank you! |
3 known Squarebacks in Brooklyn and none of them are drivers (yours, mine, that painted up one)!!! There needs to be a support group for us poor souls..
Also sucks about that head.....it's not even original, so it's not as if it's the OG head finally giving up the ghost or something .
Make sure to loosen up the exhaust on that head too when pulling off the heater box. Often, you'll need to fuss around with the box and the muffler to get the pipes lined up when reinstalling. |
Agreed on the support group!
In other news I have the heater boxes disconnected everywhere except for the bottom stud where it attaches to the head. I'm so confused because it almost seems like the stud is pulling out? I've been unscrewing the nut for what must be an hour at this point, and there's literally no space between the end of the stud and the heater box to even get the nut off. The top nut came off the stud fine, and the other side definitely has shorter studs. Could this be part of the problem? Some kind of internal failure on the head shoved the stud out or something? |
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Tram
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Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| periscopebill wrote: |
| D/A/N wrote: |
| periscopebill wrote: |
| W1K1 wrote: |
| Yes you need to be able to look in the exhaust port to see if the valve has dropped. The other option is pulling the head right off to check it. |
Gotcha, thank you! |
3 known Squarebacks in Brooklyn and none of them are drivers (yours, mine, that painted up one)!!! There needs to be a support group for us poor souls..
Also sucks about that head.....it's not even original, so it's not as if it's the OG head finally giving up the ghost or something .
Make sure to loosen up the exhaust on that head too when pulling off the heater box. Often, you'll need to fuss around with the box and the muffler to get the pipes lined up when reinstalling. |
Agreed on the support group!
In other news I have the heater boxes disconnected everywhere except for the bottom stud where it attaches to the head. I'm so confused because it almost seems like the stud is pulling out? I've been unscrewing the nut for what must be an hour at this point, and there's literally no space between the end of the stud and the heater box to even get the nut off. The top nut came off the stud fine, and the other side definitely has shorter studs. Could this be part of the problem? Some kind of internal failure on the head shoved the stud out or something? |
Get a flat head screw driver under the nut and push it as you turn it with the wrench or socket.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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periscopebill
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Joined: May 17, 2013
Posts: 148
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
| Get a flat head screw driver under the nut and push it as you turn it with the wrench or socket. |
Maybe this shows it better? It's not that the nut isn't moving, it's that the stud is touching the heater box with no clearance to get the nut off, and hasn't gained space even as the flange comes away from the head.
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Bobnotch
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| Tram wrote: |
| periscopebill wrote: |
| D/A/N wrote: |
| periscopebill wrote: |
| W1K1 wrote: |
| Yes you need to be able to look in the exhaust port to see if the valve has dropped. The other option is pulling the head right off to check it. |
Gotcha, thank you! |
3 known Squarebacks in Brooklyn and none of them are drivers (yours, mine, that painted up one)!!! There needs to be a support group for us poor souls..
Also sucks about that head.....it's not even original, so it's not as if it's the OG head finally giving up the ghost or something .
Make sure to loosen up the exhaust on that head too when pulling off the heater box. Often, you'll need to fuss around with the box and the muffler to get the pipes lined up when reinstalling. |
Agreed on the support group!
In other news I have the heater boxes disconnected everywhere except for the bottom stud where it attaches to the head. I'm so confused because it almost seems like the stud is pulling out? I've been unscrewing the nut for what must be an hour at this point, and there's literally no space between the end of the stud and the heater box to even get the nut off. The top nut came off the stud fine, and the other side definitely has shorter studs. Could this be part of the problem? Some kind of internal failure on the head shoved the stud out or something? |
Get a flat head screw driver under the nut and push it as you turn it with the wrench or socket. |
Yeah, the threads on the nut might be gone causing the problem. Also, using the flat head screw driver, pry the heat exchanger away from the head, as that might/should give you room to remove the nut. 
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sjbartnik
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2015 11:16 am Post subject: |
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When you turn the nut, does just the nut rotate or does the whole stud? If the latter, then yes the stud is unthreading itself from the head because the nut is corroded to the stud and that bond is stronger than the bond of the stud into the head.
That would also explain why you don't have any clearance to remove the nut, the stud is backing out and closing your gap.
Yay working on VW exhausts is fun!
Ugh that's a tight spot too. You need to hit that nut and the threads it's on with some penetrating oil like Fluid Film or PB Blaster or Liquid Wrench and let it soak for a while. Then you have to find some way to immobilize that stud which is gonna be tricky in those tight quarters. Maybe some vise grips on the NON-THREADED portion of the center of the stud, squeezed on there really really tight. Then after repeated soakings of penetrating oil you *may* be able to get that nut to start moving off the stud.
Then you'll have to spin the stud back into the head in order to get clearance to get the nut off. Once you get the heat exchanger off you can double-nut the stud back into place with some thread locker (Loctite) so it's not so inclined to come out in the future.
I would also suggest some anti-seize on the threads when you put the nut back on but it gets so hot there I'm not sure it would do any good.
Last edited by sjbartnik on Tue May 05, 2015 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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