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jadney
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2005
Posts: 263
Location: Madison, WI, USA
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 Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Bizarre! 
I don't think I ever looked at this detail before, but this one just didn't look right. So I just went down and pulled a couple washers off the end of a rocker shaft I have here. The IDs are the same, but the OD of the wavy washer is slightly smaller than the OD of the flat washer.
I wonder where that one came from. Could that be from a Type 4 engine? Check the others and make sure that's the only one like it.
Find someone with a junk rocker assy. and grab a replacement. I have several here, but I'm heading out of town tomorrow for several days.
And keep in mind that it's VERY important to get the clip properly and completely installed back in the slots in the shaft. You don't want one of them to pop loose when the engine's running.
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Jim Adney
50+ years of VW Type 3 experience
Specializing in VW Type 3 parts and service |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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I'm a little worried that Brooklyn has served up 2 for 2 stumpers lately. I'm not sure what that means for me.  |
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jadney
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2005
Posts: 263
Location: Madison, WI, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2015 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Sarah, I'm back home now. Have you found a replacement washer?
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Jim Adney
50+ years of VW Type 3 experience
Specializing in VW Type 3 parts and service |
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periscopebill
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Joined: May 17, 2013
Posts: 148
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| jadney wrote: |
| Sarah, I'm back home now. Have you found a replacement washer? |
I did, thanks for checking! (Thanks D/A/N and neena!) So yesterday I got the washer replaced along with a new clip, went through the whole deal, readjusted valves. Started the car and it's still making the sound. Wth.
Also, it looks like this spacer has shifted. I admit, I didn't pull the rocker shaft off to fix it yesterday, but the nuts are still torqued correctly. I can fix it tonight, but could this shifting around cause the sound? Also the stud on #4 side seems like it's shorter, is this normal or could the spacer be doing something funky and pushing the shaft out further on this side? Both intakes 3/4 were pretty loose when I adjusted valves.
And just a side question, when you pull the rocker shaft off and then put it back on, do you always check the valves again? I have been, but just wanted to know if there was a general rule.
I drove it for a while to see if the tapping would stop, which it eventually did. When the tapping quiets down, the gen light glows almost imperceptibly. When it makes the tapping I hear a slight squeal and the gen light flickers more brightly. Could the belt or the generator affect the sound? Or just coincidence? |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| periscopebill wrote: |
I drove it for a while to see if the tapping would stop, which it eventually did. When the tapping quiets down, the gen light glows almost imperceptibly. When it makes the tapping I hear a slight squeal and the gen light flickers more brightly. Could the belt or the generator affect the sound? Or just coincidence? |
That doesn't seem to make any damn sense. 
Now you've got me wondering if we're chasing a noise in the valvetrain but it's really coming from the generator. I would try running the engine with the generator belt removed and see if it still makes the tapping.
The only association that the generator light should have with this, if the noise is indeed in the valvetrain, is if there is some change in the idle speed between the times when it is tapping, i.e. it's getting lower and the generator is not charging as well because of that.
But you're talking about a slight squeal and the generator light getting brighter this is telling me your gen belt may be slipping a bit and maybe it's doing that because there is an issue with generator bearings or something that is making it harder for the engine to turn it.
Is this change in generator light behavior always consistent with the coming and going of the tapping noise?
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| periscopebill wrote: |
And just a side question, when you pull the rocker shaft off and then put it back on, do you always check the valves again? I have been, but just wanted to know if there was a general rule.
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In theory, you should not have to. If you are putting the same rocker shaft back with all rockers back with the same valves they were originally opening and you get everything seated properly then there should be no change in valve clearance and no need to check.
Then again, it doesn't hurt to check and may help you spot an assembly error if you check and all of a sudden something is off.
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
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Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:40 am Post subject: |
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ORRRR could this be fan noise?
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2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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jadney
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Joined: January 13, 2005
Posts: 263
Location: Madison, WI, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| periscopebill wrote: |
Also, it looks like this spacer has shifted. I admit, I didn't pull the rocker shaft off to fix it yesterday, but the nuts are still torqued correctly. I can fix it tonight, but could this shifting around cause the sound? Also the stud on #4 side seems like it's shorter, is this normal or could the spacer be doing something funky and pushing the shaft out further on this side? Both intakes 3/4 were pretty loose when I adjusted valves.
And just a side question, when you pull the rocker shaft off and then put it back on, do you always check the valves again? I have been, but just wanted to know if there was a general rule.
I drove it for a while to see if the tapping would stop, which it eventually did. When the tapping quiets down, the gen light glows almost imperceptibly. When it makes the tapping I hear a slight squeal and the gen light flickers more brightly. Could the belt or the generator affect the sound? Or just coincidence? |
Yes, it looks like one of the shims we installed under the RHS rocker stands has rotated slightly, probably some time when you had the rocker shaft off. That's not a problem unless you find that you can still rotate it when the nut above is tight. If you CAN, then that is a problem.
It should not be necessary to readjust the valves after taking the rockers apart, as long as you don't mix up the pushrods. But I agree that it's still a good idea, to verify that you've got everything back together right.
Sounds like your "tapping" is related to RPM, as if there's something that resonates at a certain faster idle frequency. I still suspect a missing or loose cooling tin screw. Once the engine's warmed up, the idle drops, the errant part is no longer resonant, and the idle has dropped enough that the generator is no longer putting out. Such generator light issues are somewhat common, and not really much of a concern.
Any chance your "tapping" is coming from under the back seat? The voltage regulators sometimes make a clicking sound when they are on their last legs. However, I don't recall this being related to RPM. If the noise IS coming from the VR, you need to replace it ASAP, or it is likely to damage the generator pulley.
I don't suspect the generator as a problem. We took it apart when you were here and replaced the bearings.
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Jim Adney
50+ years of VW Type 3 experience
Specializing in VW Type 3 parts and service |
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periscopebill
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Joined: May 17, 2013
Posts: 148
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| sjbartnik wrote: |
That doesn't seem to make any damn sense. Smile
Now you've got me wondering if we're chasing a noise in the valvetrain but it's really coming from the generator. I would try running the engine with the generator belt removed and see if it still makes the tapping.
The only association that the generator light should have with this, if the noise is indeed in the valvetrain, is if there is some change in the idle speed between the times when it is tapping, i.e. it's getting lower and the generator is not charging as well because of that.
But you're talking about a slight squeal and the generator light getting brighter this is telling me your gen belt may be slipping a bit and maybe it's doing that because there is an issue with generator bearings or something that is making it harder for the engine to turn it.
Is this change in generator light behavior always consistent with the coming and going of the tapping noise? |
I went for a short drive last night to see if I could find any consistent symptoms, which of course there were none. The generator light only flickered when it was first running, then stayed off for the remainder. 
Here's what it sounds like cold starting:
https://soundcloud.com/periscopebill/cold-start
This was after driving for 20 minutes, stop and go. Making the sound off and on at idle apparently totally randomly. I parked, it was making the sound, revved the engine and it went away.
https://soundcloud.com/periscopebill/tapping-rev-change
Oh, I just had a thought- right around early December before I put my car away for the winter, my AAR wasn't working at all, plugging the breather hose would kill the engine even after driving for 1-2 hours. A friend had helped me piece together a better working one with parts from a spare he had. I didn't think to plug and check the hose, but the way the car is behaving after revving it, as well as cold starting could the amount of air flow have an effect on this? Maybe?
| jadney wrote: |
Yes, it looks like one of the shims we installed under the RHS rocker stands has rotated slightly, probably some time when you had the rocker shaft off. That's not a problem unless you find that you can still rotate it when the nut above is tight. If you CAN, then that is a problem.
It should not be necessary to readjust the valves after taking the rockers apart, as long as you don't mix up the pushrods. But I agree that it's still a good idea, to verify that you've got everything back together right.
Sounds like your "tapping" is related to RPM, as if there's something that resonates at a certain faster idle frequency. I still suspect a missing or loose cooling tin screw. Once the engine's warmed up, the idle drops, the errant part is no longer resonant, and the idle has dropped enough that the generator is no longer putting out. Such generator light issues are somewhat common, and not really much of a concern.
Any chance your "tapping" is coming from under the back seat? The voltage regulators sometimes make a clicking sound when they are on their last legs. However, I don't recall this being related to RPM. If the noise IS coming from the VR, you need to replace it ASAP, or it is likely to damage the generator pulley.
I don't suspect the generator as a problem. We took it apart when you were here and replaced the bearings. |
The issue here is that this is the LHD side, not the side we installed the spacers on.. I'll check to see if I can move it around. I've replaced the VR since buying the car because it was going bad and making the popping/clicking sound. This doesn't sound the same to me.. |
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jadney
Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2005
Posts: 263
Location: Madison, WI, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| periscopebill wrote: |
I went for a short drive last night to see if I could find any consistent symptoms, which of course there were none. The generator light only flickered when it was first running, then stayed off for the remainder.
Here's what it sounds like cold starting:
https://soundcloud.com/periscopebill/cold-start
This was after driving for 20 minutes, stop and go. Making the sound off and on at idle apparently totally randomly. I parked, it was making the sound, revved the engine and it went away.
https://soundcloud.com/periscopebill/tapping-rev-change
Oh, I just had a thought- right around early December before I put my car away for the winter, my AAR wasn't working at all, plugging the breather hose would kill the engine even after driving for 1-2 hours. A friend had helped me piece together a better working one with parts from a spare he had. I didn't think to plug and check the hose, but the way the car is behaving after revving it, as well as cold starting could the amount of air flow have an effect on this? Maybe?
| jadney wrote: |
| Any chance your "tapping" is coming from under the back seat? The voltage regulators sometimes make a clicking sound when they are on their last legs. However, I don't recall this being related to RPM. If the noise IS coming from the VR, you need to replace it ASAP, or it is likely to damage the generator pulley. |
The issue here is that this is the LHD side, not the side we installed the spacers on.. I'll check to see if I can move it around. I've replaced the VR since buying the car because it was going bad and making the popping/clicking sound. This doesn't sound the same to me.. |
Yes, the shim is only a cosmetic problem, as long as it's tight there.
I'm disappointed in the AAR that I rebuilt for you. Sounds like it got stuck again, and that should not have happened so soon. Would you be willing to send it back to me for inspection and a refund? I would like to see what went wrong.
Is your thermostat and linkage working? If it was stuck open, the engine would not be warming up properly and that might explain why the engine would die when you blocked off the AAR hose. You can inspect the thermostat, warm and cold. by looking at it from the underside of the right rear of the engine. You should be able to see a difference in the length of the thermostat as it warms up.
Did we saw a slot in the right hand end of the cooling flap shaft? If so, you have an even better way to check the thermostat and linkage.
The function of the AAR is to increase the idle when the engine is cold (or, ideally, to hold the idle speed constant in spite of the extra viscosity of cold oil.) The compensation is never perfect, so a change in idle speed with warmup is normal. I don't suspect the air itself is making the rattle that you hear, but the change in idle speed is causing the change in the resonance, so the rattle is a secondary effect of the extra air.
I'm not able to listen to your sound files, but I listened to the one you posted earlier. I'll try a different PC. I admit that I didn't know what to make of it. The VR suggestion was just wild guess. Glad you reminded me that you've already heard that sound and replaced the VR.
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Jim Adney
50+ years of VW Type 3 experience
Specializing in VW Type 3 parts and service |
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