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jaransonT3 Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2005 Posts: 1260 Location: Dearborn, MI
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2224 Location: 11222
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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jaransonT3 wrote: |
Hump around the valve guide or not....I still don't see anything unusual with the valve seat in Sarah's pictures....unless it is loose when the valve is open. |
Really? To me, the picture of Sarah's doesn't look anything like yours. Again, I'm no expert so please school me if I'm wrong.
I "drew" a red line across what I think is the seat. Between the right end of the red line and, say, the last bit of valve you can see before it goes into the guide looks like the head itself. If you trace the circle down, there's deep shadow that shouldn't be there. Or am I crazy?
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jaransonT3 Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2005 Posts: 1260 Location: Dearborn, MI
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a side by side comparison with and without highlighting of what I think is the seat in both cases. Look pretty much the same to me. I have smoothed the transition between the guide and the head during the porting is all.
_________________ Later,
John Jaranson
'66 Square
'69 Square
'70-1 Fasty
https://www.carartbyjohn.com
https://www.carartbyjohn.com/2024Invasion/ |
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W1K1 Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2004 Posts: 4897 Location: Southern AB
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D/A/N Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010 Posts: 2224 Location: 11222
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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jaransonT3 wrote: |
Here is a side by side comparison with and without highlighting of what I think is the seat in both cases. Look pretty much the same to me. I have smoothed the transition between the guide and the head during the porting is all.
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Got it....I looked at an 040 VW head and a Brazilian Auto Linea head and they both look more like yours with the blended/smoothed transition than they do Sarah's. However, I can confirm that the VW head has the hump around the exhaust valve and the aftermarket head does not. |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Well, there's a noise and the valve stem is shorter on that one valve than on the others, so the head needs to come off in my opinion. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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jaransonT3 Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2005 Posts: 1260 Location: Dearborn, MI
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Posted: Wed May 06, 2015 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately, I tend to agree Tram. I wonder if the guide is just worn out. Valve could be sloppy side to side and make that noise.
IF that was the case, the head would still need to come out. _________________ Later,
John Jaranson
'66 Square
'69 Square
'70-1 Fasty
https://www.carartbyjohn.com
https://www.carartbyjohn.com/2024Invasion/ |
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jadney Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2005 Posts: 263 Location: Madison, WI, USA
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 9:27 am Post subject: |
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jaransonT3 wrote: |
Unfortunately, I tend to agree Tram. I wonder if the guide is just worn out. Valve could be sloppy side to side and make that noise. |
Sarah emailed me so I just found and read this thread. I don't have any real ideas about what the noise is, but I doubt it's in the heads.
A couple of observations:
I agree with Tram that the lack of the exhaust guide boss is troubling. That would make the valve run much hotter and also leave it less well mechanically supported. Berg's porting instructions specifically tell you not to remove that boss. Same in the Bill Fisher book. Exhaust porting, because flow there is forced by the piston, is much less important than intake porting.
There's no point in looking for that boss in the exhaust system. It was either never there in this aftermarket casting, or it was ground away by someone as they worked over the head. They don't just fall off.
BTW, Sarah and I had the OTHER head off last summer to fix other things. I'm sorry to say that I don't remember looking to see if that boss was there. I wonder if both heads are the same make?
I don't think the valve seat is moving. I THINK what we're seeing in the photos is either a beveled edge at the bottom of the seat, or a bevel machined into the head at the edge of the shelf where the seat comes to rest.
You can check guide wear by grabbing each valve spring retainer in turn with a large pair of pliers and firmly moving it up and down. If there's a lot of wear, you can tell by the fact that the exhausts will move much more than the intakes.
My first thought about the noise was that it was probably a loose heat shield on an OE muffler, but now I read that she has an aftermarket header. Still, it could be some other piece of tin that has lost a screw somewhere and is now banging around. What she really needed to do was some exploring with a long screwdriver, blunt end in her ear, listening to different parts of the engine. For sounds that aren't actually internal, a length of Tygon tubing with one end in an ear can be better.
Could it be a rod bearing noise? If so, she might be able to feel the backlash in the crank. This would be most obvious when the pistons are halfway between TDC and BDC. Sometimes you can both hear and feel this. This possibility seems unlikely to me, since she's driven so far on it without its becoming fatal. Still, the test for it is easy. _________________ Jim Adney
50+ years of VW Type 3 experience
Specializing in VW Type 3 parts and service |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 10:18 am Post subject: |
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jadney wrote: |
jaransonT3 wrote: |
Unfortunately, I tend to agree Tram. I wonder if the guide is just worn out. Valve could be sloppy side to side and make that noise. |
Sarah emailed me so I just found and read this thread. I don't have any real ideas about what the noise is, but I doubt it's in the heads.
A couple of observations:
I agree with Tram that the lack of the exhaust guide boss is troubling. That would make the valve run much hotter and also leave it less well mechanically supported. Berg's porting instructions specifically tell you not to remove that boss. Same in the Bill Fisher book. Exhaust porting, because flow there is forced by the piston, is much less important than intake porting.
There's no point in looking for that boss in the exhaust system. It was either never there in this aftermarket casting, or it was ground away by someone as they worked over the head. They don't just fall off.
BTW, Sarah and I had the OTHER head off last summer to fix other things. I'm sorry to say that I don't remember looking to see if that boss was there. I wonder if both heads are the same make?
I don't think the valve seat is moving. I THINK what we're seeing in the photos is either a beveled edge at the bottom of the seat, or a bevel machined into the head at the edge of the shelf where the seat comes to rest.
You can check guide wear by grabbing each valve spring retainer in turn with a large pair of pliers and firmly moving it up and down. If there's a lot of wear, you can tell by the fact that the exhausts will move much more than the intakes.
My first thought about the noise was that it was probably a loose heat shield on an OE muffler, but now I read that she has an aftermarket header. Still, it could be some other piece of tin that has lost a screw somewhere and is now banging around. What she really needed to do was some exploring with a long screwdriver, blunt end in her ear, listening to different parts of the engine. For sounds that aren't actually internal, a length of Tygon tubing with one end in an ear can be better.
Could it be a rod bearing noise? If so, she might be able to feel the backlash in the crank. This would be most obvious when the pistons are halfway between TDC and BDC. Sometimes you can both hear and feel this. This possibility seems unlikely to me, since she's driven so far on it without its becoming fatal. Still, the test for it is easy. |
Jim, I believe she said the noise went away with a valve adjustment but soon returned and the adjustment was again loose.
Sarah- is this correct or did I misinterpret something? _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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periscopebill Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013 Posts: 148 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
jadney wrote: |
jaransonT3 wrote: |
Unfortunately, I tend to agree Tram. I wonder if the guide is just worn out. Valve could be sloppy side to side and make that noise. |
Sarah emailed me so I just found and read this thread. I don't have any real ideas about what the noise is, but I doubt it's in the heads.
A couple of observations:
I agree with Tram that the lack of the exhaust guide boss is troubling. That would make the valve run much hotter and also leave it less well mechanically supported. Berg's porting instructions specifically tell you not to remove that boss. Same in the Bill Fisher book. Exhaust porting, because flow there is forced by the piston, is much less important than intake porting.
There's no point in looking for that boss in the exhaust system. It was either never there in this aftermarket casting, or it was ground away by someone as they worked over the head. They don't just fall off.
BTW, Sarah and I had the OTHER head off last summer to fix other things. I'm sorry to say that I don't remember looking to see if that boss was there. I wonder if both heads are the same make?
I don't think the valve seat is moving. I THINK what we're seeing in the photos is either a beveled edge at the bottom of the seat, or a bevel machined into the head at the edge of the shelf where the seat comes to rest.
You can check guide wear by grabbing each valve spring retainer in turn with a large pair of pliers and firmly moving it up and down. If there's a lot of wear, you can tell by the fact that the exhausts will move much more than the intakes.
My first thought about the noise was that it was probably a loose heat shield on an OE muffler, but now I read that she has an aftermarket header. Still, it could be some other piece of tin that has lost a screw somewhere and is now banging around. What she really needed to do was some exploring with a long screwdriver, blunt end in her ear, listening to different parts of the engine. For sounds that aren't actually internal, a length of Tygon tubing with one end in an ear can be better.
Could it be a rod bearing noise? If so, she might be able to feel the backlash in the crank. This would be most obvious when the pistons are halfway between TDC and BDC. Sometimes you can both hear and feel this. This possibility seems unlikely to me, since she's driven so far on it without its becoming fatal. Still, the test for it is easy. |
Jim, I believe she said the noise went away with a valve adjustment but soon returned and the adjustment was again loose.
Sarah- is this correct or did I misinterpret something? |
After the valve adjustment the noise was still there immediately upon start up. No change. And the valve adjustment didn't give any indication of an issue. Intake 3 was a tiny bit loose- .008. Exhaust 3 was dead on at .006, everything else was at .006 as well.
Should I try to wiggle the valves back and forth/side to side? I can try that tonight as soon as I get home. |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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periscopebill wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
jadney wrote: |
jaransonT3 wrote: |
Unfortunately, I tend to agree Tram. I wonder if the guide is just worn out. Valve could be sloppy side to side and make that noise. |
Sarah emailed me so I just found and read this thread. I don't have any real ideas about what the noise is, but I doubt it's in the heads.
A couple of observations:
I agree with Tram that the lack of the exhaust guide boss is troubling. That would make the valve run much hotter and also leave it less well mechanically supported. Berg's porting instructions specifically tell you not to remove that boss. Same in the Bill Fisher book. Exhaust porting, because flow there is forced by the piston, is much less important than intake porting.
There's no point in looking for that boss in the exhaust system. It was either never there in this aftermarket casting, or it was ground away by someone as they worked over the head. They don't just fall off.
BTW, Sarah and I had the OTHER head off last summer to fix other things. I'm sorry to say that I don't remember looking to see if that boss was there. I wonder if both heads are the same make?
I don't think the valve seat is moving. I THINK what we're seeing in the photos is either a beveled edge at the bottom of the seat, or a bevel machined into the head at the edge of the shelf where the seat comes to rest.
You can check guide wear by grabbing each valve spring retainer in turn with a large pair of pliers and firmly moving it up and down. If there's a lot of wear, you can tell by the fact that the exhausts will move much more than the intakes.
My first thought about the noise was that it was probably a loose heat shield on an OE muffler, but now I read that she has an aftermarket header. Still, it could be some other piece of tin that has lost a screw somewhere and is now banging around. What she really needed to do was some exploring with a long screwdriver, blunt end in her ear, listening to different parts of the engine. For sounds that aren't actually internal, a length of Tygon tubing with one end in an ear can be better.
Could it be a rod bearing noise? If so, she might be able to feel the backlash in the crank. This would be most obvious when the pistons are halfway between TDC and BDC. Sometimes you can both hear and feel this. This possibility seems unlikely to me, since she's driven so far on it without its becoming fatal. Still, the test for it is easy. |
Jim, I believe she said the noise went away with a valve adjustment but soon returned and the adjustment was again loose.
Sarah- is this correct or did I misinterpret something? |
After the valve adjustment the noise was still there immediately upon start up. No change. And the valve adjustment didn't give any indication of an issue. Intake 3 was a tiny bit loose- .008. Exhaust 3 was dead on at .006, everything else was at .006 as well.
Should I try to wiggle the valves back and forth/side to side? I can try that tonight as soon as I get home. |
Hmmm. I thought you indicated that the valve adjuster on the 3 exhaust was "bottomed out". _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Mike Fisher Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006 Posts: 17963 Location: Eugene, OR
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Did you use a hose or screwdriver for a stethoscope to be certain where the noise is? _________________ https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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periscopebill Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013 Posts: 148 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
Hmmm. I thought you indicated that the valve adjuster on the 3 exhaust was "bottomed out". |
It was, but the gap was still correct at .006. |
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kokanee Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2007 Posts: 329 Location: Washougal WA
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Tram wrote: |
kokanee wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
Pull the heater box off of #3 and see what you see in there. I think the seat on 3 exh. has an issue.
I've been telling the Type 4 conversion crowd for years that I've never seen a Type 1 head lose a valve seat but this may prove me wrong. |
I had a type 1 lose a valve seat. They only had 300 miles on them when it happened |
Were these new replacement aftermarket heads? |
They were vw castings from mexico I'm sure they are not as good as the ones from Germany |
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templeofspeed Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2007 Posts: 279 Location: Central midwest
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Posted: Thu May 07, 2015 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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Before you take anything else apart PLEASE revisit your valve adjusting procedure. The 360 degree trick is ok, but BE sure you are doing the adjustment correctly.
front
5 1
6 2
7 3
8 4
With the rotor pointing to #1 adjust 1-2-3 and 8 to .006". Then rotate the crankshaft 360 degrees (rotor pointing to #3) and then adjust 4-5-6-7 to .006".
If you make a mistake and only turn the crank 180 degrees instead of 360 degrees you could have the exact symptom you have described.
Also, if you suspect excessive guide wear have a helper slowly turn the crankshaft 720 degrees while you watch the rocker arms open and close each valve. If you see the valve stems move sideways as they go through their motions you have excessive guide wear.
Your adjuster also look pretty beat, but I suspect you are not looking at those as your problem, I've seen waaay worse.
I hope it's just an error in adjustment procedure... Sucks to take half the engine apart if so. You are with Marigold, the interwebs is not.
If you need further tech support... call.
Just tossing my small bit of mediocre experience in the ring...
-geoff _________________ Is your suspension broken? |
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periscopebill Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2013 Posts: 148 Location: Brooklyn
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Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 8:39 am Post subject: |
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jadney wrote: |
BTW, Sarah and I had the OTHER head off last summer to fix other things. I'm sorry to say that I don't remember looking to see if that boss was there. I wonder if both heads are the same make?
I don't think the valve seat is moving. I THINK what we're seeing in the photos is either a beveled edge at the bottom of the seat, or a bevel machined into the head at the edge of the shelf where the seat comes to rest.
You can check guide wear by grabbing each valve spring retainer in turn with a large pair of pliers and firmly moving it up and down. If there's a lot of wear, you can tell by the fact that the exhausts will move much more than the intakes. |
I tried moving the valve spring retainers, there was some movement side to side on 3 exh, and both 4 int/exh. The movement side to side was incremental. Not sure if that's significant, or just a sign of general wear?
If there was a sinking seat or a wearing guide would those cause a loss of power, or any noticeable change in drivability?
Here's a pic of the 1/2 head.
templeofspeed wrote: |
Before you take anything else apart PLEASE revisit your valve adjusting procedure. |
I wish that were the problem, but I've definitely adjusted them correctly. The procedure you describe is how I've always adjusted valves, but thanks though. |
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Mike Fisher Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2006 Posts: 17963 Location: Eugene, OR
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Posted: Fri May 08, 2015 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Drive it to a Mechanic while it still runs & save the engine/towing fees. It could be a rod bearing knocking. _________________ https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold
Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey |
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jadney Samba Member
Joined: January 13, 2005 Posts: 263 Location: Madison, WI, USA
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Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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jaransonT3 wrote: |
Your picture really doesn't look any different (besides the combustion build up) than the exhaust valve and guide and head on the engine I am build in my basement.
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John, take a look at Sarah's earlier photo of the inside of that rocker box. Does your head have the same markings? Is yours a new head, or something that you're rejuvenating? I'd just like to know if this is a "feature" of some particular aftermarket brand.
In addition to the lack of that boss, which seems pretty bad to me, both heads also seem to show a sort of countersink where the guide emerges from the alum. This seems like it offers even less support to the valve (and less heat sinking) but it may have been necessary to avoid a "pinch point" where the relatively cold head stopped.
I feel like the extra boss there could be quite important to the life of the valve, but I can also imagine the possibility that the boss got quite hot, making it not as advantageous as we might think.
I remain skeptical, yet puzzled.
And this all comes back to the question of where can we buy good new heads these days. Which brands are good; which should be avoided?
When you and I were stuck in Oregon (in 2006?) working on our cars while everyone else was out for a drive, I replaced a head while you did exhaust work, IIRC. The head I bought there locally was genuine Mexican VW and seemed to be excellent quality. I'd love to buy another just like it, but with the temp sensor boss.
Anyone know if that guy is still in business in Oregon? Anyone know who sells good quality heads? _________________ Jim Adney
50+ years of VW Type 3 experience
Specializing in VW Type 3 parts and service |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22697 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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jadney wrote: |
jaransonT3 wrote: |
Your picture really doesn't look any different (besides the combustion build up) than the exhaust valve and guide and head on the engine I am build in my basement.
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John, take a look at Sarah's earlier photo of the inside of that rocker box. Does your head have the same markings? Is yours a new head, or something that you're rejuvenating? I'd just like to know if this is a "feature" of some particular aftermarket brand.
In addition to the lack of that boss, which seems pretty bad to me, both heads also seem to show a sort of countersink where the guide emerges from the alum. This seems like it offers even less support to the valve (and less heat sinking) but it may have been necessary to avoid a "pinch point" where the relatively cold head stopped.
I feel like the extra boss there could be quite important to the life of the valve, but I can also imagine the possibility that the boss got quite hot, making it not as advantageous as we might think.
I remain skeptical, yet puzzled.
And this all comes back to the question of where can we buy good new heads these days. Which brands are good; which should be avoided?
When you and I were stuck in Oregon (in 2006?) working on our cars while everyone else was out for a drive, I replaced a head while you did exhaust work, IIRC. The head I bought there locally was genuine Mexican VW and seemed to be excellent quality. I'd love to buy another just like it, but with the temp sensor boss.
Anyone know if that guy is still in business in Oregon? Anyone know who sells good quality heads? |
Are you referring to Helmut Becker, Intercontinental Motors in Roseburg? If so, no, he sold out right after the Invasion and retired. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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jaransonT3 Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2005 Posts: 1260 Location: Dearborn, MI
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Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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Intercontinental Motors sounds right. Great guy and cool old shop. Too bad he packed it in.
So the heads I have are new heads that came in the SCAT engine kit I bought for the 2.0L engine build. They have 40x35.5mm valves in them. They are an 043 casting made in Mexico. Sarah's look like 040 castings. Both have the VW roundel cast into them.
Mine do have the lug for the temp sensor cast into them...it is just not drilled and tapped. _________________ Later,
John Jaranson
'66 Square
'69 Square
'70-1 Fasty
https://www.carartbyjohn.com
https://www.carartbyjohn.com/2024Invasion/ |
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