Author |
Message |
4campn Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2015 Posts: 53 Location: Hampton , VA
|
Posted: Mon May 18, 2015 8:23 pm Post subject: Found out what locked the motor up. |
|
|
Ok got the ol girl torn apart tonight. Number 3 connecting rid bearing melted. She was ceased on there on pretty good. The crank is torn up and the rod probably needs replaced. What could have caused this? The bolts was very tight seemed like more than 30 ft lbs. everything else moves freely though.
Here is how it looked when pull. All the tins that I have are attached still.
This is number 3 piston
Not sure but I think this means they are bigger pistons.
Here is the scaring on the crank
Trying to ID the engine these are the only numbers I can find. Just to make sure I order the right parts.
So now what. Where's a good place to get things for the rebuild. Are the 20$ full engine gasket kits on eBay any good cause that seems very cheap. I know we need at least a crank and connecting rod along with rebuild things. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Jeff Geisen Samba Chaplain
Joined: December 21, 2004 Posts: 1882 Location: N.W. Georgia
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 4:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
I would suggest not putting that Chinease fan shroud back on. Change the oil often after the rebuild. Missing tins contributed to the engine demise.
As well, I suggest changing the fuel pump and pushrod if you re-install the alternator. _________________ I Corinthians 4: 1 thru 5
‘63 ragtop - ‘68 single cab |
|
Back to top |
|
|
madmike Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 5292 Location: Atlanta,Michigan
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 5:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
Lack of Oil!! was/Is the issue!! get a deep sump _________________ 'Black Ice'Drag Buggy 'Turbo'
Rail Buggy 1915 turbo
76 Drag/Street bug 2180cc 'Turbo' 11:85 @113 mph"If I go any faster I'll burn up the Hamster" ,gets 28 mpg. also 10/09/22 11.90 @115 mph
"If I'm ever on Life Support,UNPLUG Me, Then Plug me back In see if that Works" |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 6:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
Is your goal to make it run reliably for a long time? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 7:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
that rod and the others should be resized, Let the machinist decide it it needs to be replaced, I've seen far worse. Post a good photo of the crank journal.
Also - plan on replacing the oil cooler as you will never get all the metal out of it. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
Back to top |
|
|
4campn Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2015 Posts: 53 Location: Hampton , VA
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 8:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
The oil levels was just fine. I checked them maybe an hour before this happened and after still normal. So not sure if that's it or not.
I did plan to replace the oil cooler for sure. Our plans and goals for the bus is to be able to daily drive it make long distance trips too as well and keep for a very long time.
Wouldn't mind a little extra power out if her too. With that said what if we choose to would be a good idea piston wise to go to? Or stick with what we have?
If I can get out of work on time I'll try and take the crank in to get looked at as well as get the block cleaned out.
So we have the heater tubes but no boxs going to try and find the tins to help keep her cool that's for sure. What's up with the fan shroud seems fine. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Brian Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012 Posts: 8340 Location: Oceanside
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 8:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
The fan shroud is bad because it doesn't have direction fins on the inside. You don't have heater boxes, you have what we call J-tubes.
Buy all of your tin here: http://www.awesomepowdercoat.com/
Ask him about the T4 cooler mod, it's worth it.
I would either get a new 1600 or try your luck at a stroker. 2110 is what I rock and I will never go lower. But be careful and have someone else build it. _________________ Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper
Only losers litter |
|
Back to top |
|
|
busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51149 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 9:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
4campn wrote: |
What's up with the fan shroud seems fine. |
Yet the engine threw a rod........................Hmmmmmmm........
I'd like to see the seals where the oil cooler bolts to the adaptor and where the adaptor bolts to the case. The oil pump would also be of interest.
Looks like a former type 3 case, where's the oil pressure light switch mounted? _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5998 Location: Brooklyn
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 9:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
4campn wrote: |
The oil levels was just fine. I checked them maybe an hour before this happened and after still normal. |
Oil level may have been just peachy but the oil pressure was obviously not.
That could have been as a result of overheating or some blockage in the oil flow to that bearing.
Quote: |
What's up with the fan shroud seems fine. |
The fan shroud is a cheap piece of aftermarket crap. Get a proper genuine VW fan shroud; it has all the internal baffling necessary for proper air direction and cooling. If you're running that junk fan shroud, you're running hot. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 9:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wow, you have a second rate shroud and no rear tins. I am actually surprised it is a bearing that went verses top end problems. I am going to suggest that the oil started foaming causing a loss of oil pressure, why it took out only one bearing is the mystery.
If you don't want to hook your heat up ever then find a shroud for a T-181/ The Thing, but if you do want heat then get a dog house style shroud with all the bits and pieces for the dog house. For either make sure you also have all the bits and pieces for the thermostat flaps. The mid 70's Beetle shrouds with the venturi on the fan entrance are supposed to flow a bit more air and can't be totally blocked of as easily. Other may give you better info here. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 10:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
three common reasons for failure are low oil, overheating of piston #3 on a bus without a dog house causing less lubrication on #3 and more heat on that cod and bearing. Sometimes being a little low on oil on a hard winding road may cause aeration of the oil as the pump sucks in air occasionally. Any air that gets sucked in goes out the rod bearings. That one has been going on for awhile.
Another cause on an old engine, and it would not surprise me on that one, is most people look at a used connecting rod during the prior rebuild and say, looks ok to me and they reuse it when rebuilding the engine to save time and money. One must clamp the two haves together in a special vice that hold the sides parallel, then torque it, then use a special bore gauge to measure it. They grow and go oval over time. Only the machine shop is going to be able to say if the connecting rods are to size of not. Sometimes on a lower mileage motor you can look at the back of the bearing and see if it has been stationary or working. If there clear shiny spots on the back then it has been working in the bore in the connecting rod. Same for a main bearing. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
Back to top |
|
|
sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5998 Location: Brooklyn
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 10:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wildthings wrote: |
Wow, you have a second rate shroud and no rear tins. |
I was assuming that the rear tins had been removed for easier removal of the engine from the Bus, but yeah OP, if you're actually running this thing without rear tins and without the engine compartment seal, you are massively overheating it basically all the time. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ToolBox Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2004 Posts: 3439 Location: Detroit, where they don't jack parts off my ride in the parking lot of the 7-11
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 11:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
Lose the power pulley too! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
4campn Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2015 Posts: 53 Location: Hampton , VA
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 11:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
Brian wrote: |
The fan shroud is bad because it doesn't have direction fins on the inside. You don't have heater boxes, you have what we call J-tubes.
Buy all of your tin here: http://www.awesomepowdercoat.com/
Ask him about the T4 cooler mod, it's worth it.
I would either get a new 1600 or try your luck at a stroker. 2110 is what I rock and I will never go lower. But be careful and have someone else build it. |
Thanks for the link. I would love to do a stroker if funds was more. Might still as long as the tranny will hold up. I'll email them and ask about that cooler mod. Don't want to be doing this again. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
4campn Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2015 Posts: 53 Location: Hampton , VA
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 11:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
busdaddy wrote: |
4campn wrote: |
What's up with the fan shroud seems fine. |
Yet the engine threw a rod........................Hmmmmmmm........
I'd like to see the seals where the oil cooler bolts to the adaptor and where the adaptor bolts to the case. The oil pump would also be of interest.
Looks like a former type 3 case, where's the oil pressure light switch mounted? |
Again I'm getting this bus and only had it for 5 days then this happened. This is all new to me and would love to fix it right. The case numbers I posted bc I couldn't figure out what I have. I do plan to get a new oil pump for sure |
|
Back to top |
|
|
4campn Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2015 Posts: 53 Location: Hampton , VA
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 11:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wildthings wrote: |
Wow, you have a second rate shroud and no rear tins. I am actually surprised it is a bearing that went verses top end problems. I am going to suggest that the oil started foaming causing a loss of oil pressure, why it took out only one bearing is the mystery.
If you don't want to hook your heat up ever then find a shroud for a T-181/ The Thing, but if you do want heat then get a dog house style shroud with all the bits and pieces for the dog house. For either make sure you also have all the bits and pieces for the thermostat flaps. The mid 70's Beetle shrouds with the venturi on the fan entrance are supposed to flow a bit more air and can't be totally blocked of as easily. Other may give you better info here. |
By rear tins you mean where the door catch is? If so yes that was there. The door isn't sealed perfectly IMO due to dented and no seal. We do want to add heat so eventually that will have to be added |
|
Back to top |
|
|
4campn Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2015 Posts: 53 Location: Hampton , VA
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 11:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
Another note I do not plan to just use the old rods if no good. I'll have a shop check them out. The power pulley I see all the time on many applications so don't see no reason to lose it. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
sjbartnik Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011 Posts: 5998 Location: Brooklyn
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 11:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
4campn wrote: |
Another note I do not plan to just use the old rods if no good. I'll have a shop check them out. The power pulley I see all the time on many applications so don't see no reason to lose it. |
I see a lot of crap on other applications too but that doesn't mean they're good ideas.
The power pulley is a really bad idea on this engine because it under-drives the alternator. On the back end of that alternator is the cooling fan. So you're also under-driving the cooling fan.
Again, overheating. This engine in a Bus needs every bit of cooling it can get. Power pulley is a no-no.
Also a general rule of thumb, with the engine installed, if you can see the ground from inside the engine compartment, you've got problems. The upper half of the engine needs to be completely sealed off from the lower half when installed. VW accomplished this with the tin and the rubber seal between the engine and the body. Make sure you maintain that seal.
But yeah get a real fan shroud and lose the power pulley or you'll be toasting your next engine right quick too. _________________ 1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 11:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
power pulley on a bus is not a good idea as the prior poster explained. You need all the cooling you can get in a bus. On a sand rail you can run a power pulley. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50351
|
Posted: Tue May 19, 2015 12:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
sjbartnik wrote: |
But yeah get a real fan shroud and lose the power pulley or you'll be toasting your next engine right quick too. |
A lot of people have been down this road over and over as the years pass, not understanding that all the fancy stuff they have bought from place like JC Whitney and CIP1 don't do the job much at all, anything sold under the EMPI name or which is chromed and bubble packed is also suspect.
As far as the power pulley, 2% more power in exchange for 20% less cooling is not a good trade off. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|