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David Follett Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2010 Posts: 99 Location: Media, PA
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Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 7:41 am Post subject: T2 - T4 Engines |
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I found a G coded Type 2 engine which I think is a '74-76 and am thinking of installing it in my '69 Ghia. I am curious if this is the same as the Type 4 engine and would it fit my Type 1 transmission? My initial thought is not to convert the engine for upright cooling which is probably beyond my budget, do some minor engine bay modification, replace pistons/cylinders, possibly heads if not rebuild, fuel injection w/carburator(s)& a new exhaust system. If all goes well eventually rebuild bottom of engine.
There seems to be more information on the Type 4 and am hoping that would help a T2 project.
Thank you for any tech info and pro con comments you may have. _________________ Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 8:38 am Post subject: |
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I would spend a bit more time reading and researching. The classification "type 2" is a type of vehicle.....not an engine type. Type 2 is the bus. Type 1 was ghia, bug and thing.
However the early bus up to 1972 used a version of the engine from the type 1 series or class. After 1972.....the bus used a "version" of the engine taken from type 4 vehicles which were the 411 and 412 cars.
So in that reapect.....late 1972 and up buses used a type 4 engine. Except for small details the late bus, type 4 cars and Porsche 914 used the same case castings, one of two difterent crank and rod sets....all interchangeable, one of three piston sizes and had a handful of piston compression ratios, head castings and valve sizes. 1.7l, 1.8l and 2.0l.
I would strip it all the way down and find out what crank, pistons cam etc. The engine has. Keep everything in order from where they came out.....lifters, pistons, cylinders and main bearings.
If the main bearings are pristine they may be worth saving. Typically I would not reuse cam and lifters no matter what. There are much better out there and the factory set up had long term wear issues.
The type 4 wear engine is a bit more involved to rebuild than type 1 in the respect that you cant just slap it together. Be careful on parts selection and combination.
Yes....it will fit your type 1 bell housing with some clearancing. Ray |
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Lars S Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007 Posts: 780 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sun May 24, 2015 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Agree to what Ray says...also the T4 engine is more robust than the T1 but bus engines can be heavily (mis)used.
I think you will find lots of info on similar conversions searching on the different forums on theSamba and other places, I found this one:
http://www.reocities.com/~dfarr/4into1/firstpage.html
Lars D _________________ Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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David Follett Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2010 Posts: 99 Location: Media, PA
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Posted: Tue May 26, 2015 7:44 am Post subject: T2/T4 Engines |
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Thank you Ray & Lars. _________________ Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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Assuming your flywheel is 210mm or 215mm from a 411/412/bus, you won't have any issues adapting it to a 12 volt T1 transmission. Ring gear is the same as are the splines in the disk.
There is just one thing you need to do to make it right though. And that is removing the pilot bearing that is pressed into the crank and pressing it into the flywheel until it is flush with the face. Sometimes this works just fine as is, sometimes the hole in the flywheel needs to be opened up slightly.
The reason this must be done is so that the input shaft is fully supported in the bearing. T4 pilot bearings are set further back than the T1. Remember, the T4 is in the crank, and the T1 is in the gland nut that holds the flywheel on. If you don't move it your input shaft will only partially ride in the bearing. Best case scenario it wears funny and gets sloppy. Worst case scenario it is riding on the tapered portion of the input shaft and is already sloppy...remember the input shaft is supposed to keep the clutch disc concentric with the flywheel. If the input shaft is sloppy, it doesn't. Don't take the chance, it isn''t that hard to move the pilot bearing. Honestly, hardest part is getting it out of the crank.
228mm bus flywheels will fit just fine, but the pressure plates require removing some material inside the bell housing of the transmission. I don't recommend it though. It is already thin enough as is. Don't push it.
Porsche 914 flywheels have the ring gear face set off differently, and starters don't always engage with them well. I'm told this ca be cured by turning it back an 1/8th of an inch, but I have never tried it, so you will have to ask someone else if you have a 914 flywheel...which you probably don't, but they do get flopped around from engine to engine sometimes. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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David Follett Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2010 Posts: 99 Location: Media, PA
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:10 am Post subject: T2-T4 Engines |
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Thank you for the pilot shaft bearing information. Not sure what I'll have until I pick up the Bus engine. If the T1 pilot shaft will not fully seat into a T4 crankshaft bearing could I leave that bearing in the crank and install an additional bearing in the flywheel? _________________ Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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I wouldn't recommend it. Pilot bearing in the crank is pretty much flush with the face of the crank. Flywheel is thinner than the bearing is wide, so the bearing would stick out a few mm.
That is the one thing I didn't mention. It would be helpful to make sure the pilot fits the flywheel, but don't necessarily drive it all the way home. Once you know it will fit the flywheel, then install the flywheel loosely with a few bolts, and then drive the bearing in until it is flush with the face of the flywheel. Once it is fitted, torque the bolts on the flywheel down. If the flywheel is tight, sometimes the holes don't line up just right, and you can't drive the bearing in past the flywheel. The back end of the bearing will seat a couple mm into the crank. Leaving the flywheel bolts slightly loose gives you some wiggle room for when you are driving the back side of the bearing through the flywhleel and into the crank. Once lined up and starting to fit into the crank, then you can torque the bolts, and finish driving in the bearing. Be careful. It is a small bearing and somewhat easy to damage. Take it slow and you will be just fine.
Hope that clarifies a few things for ya. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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David Follett Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2010 Posts: 99 Location: Media, PA
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Posted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you again for excellent information. I'll keep you posted as my project begins. Dave. _________________ Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds good. I don't frequent the 411/412 forums much, but I occasionally creep them. If I see anything from you I will check it out.
I also just realized something. You say it is a 69 Ghia? I am assuming the original transmission is in it with the older style throw out bearing? If so, those are made for pressure plates with a center ring. T4 pressure plates are similar to the 71 and later T1 throw out bearings and pressure plates with no disk on the pressure plate. You can convert a stock 69 transmission to use the later style throw out bearings. Press in center sleeves are sold so that you can use the later style throw out bearings. You will also need to get the later style clutch throw out arm. They can be swapped around. Just be aware that there are two different sizes. It has been a while since I measured them, but I believe there is a 16mm and a 20mm one. The 20mm ones were used on 72 and later transmissions...if I remember right. 16mm was earlier. All 20mm ones are for the later throw out bearings. The 16mm ones are made for both early and late throw out bearings. 20mm ones don't fit the 16mm shafted cases because the bearings are larger. All 16mm ones have the same bearings. I assume since yours is a 69 that you have a 16mm shaft. A 16mm shaft for the later throw out bearings and a press in conversion sleeve for the case should fix you up just fine. I believe you can get everything you need to convert the trow out bearings from ACN. So, drop them a line and tell them you have a 69 transmission you want to convert to the later style throw out bearing, and they should be able to point you in the right direction. You may be lucky and have a case from the transition years with the bosses cast in but not drilled for the factory sleeve. If you do, you could buy a stock sleeve and drill and tap them for the sleeve. If you already have a later style transmission with the sleeve, you are golden, no mods necessary. _________________ 1800 Type 4 Berrien 295
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021 |
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Vanapplebomb Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Holland, MI
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David Follett Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2010 Posts: 99 Location: Media, PA
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Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:21 am Post subject: |
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Have been researching all your great info. Thanks very much. Dave _________________ Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan |
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Back to top |
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David Follett Samba Member
Joined: May 10, 2010 Posts: 99 Location: Media, PA
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Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:59 am Post subject: |
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A few more transmission questions if you can advise. I've located two AH transmissions. One ser # starting with 122 and the other 405. I believe they are from a '71 or later Type 1. If so do you think there would be an advantage to use the newer transmission(s) instead of modifying my'69? Not sure until I get home next week what trans the Ghia has. I read a AN model is used in the Ghia and not sure if the AH is stronger or geared better. Again, thank you for previous info. Have decided not to mess with the T4 engine and will probably do a T1 project. Current engine is a '71 with a upper rebuild but has excessive crankshaft end play, new heads, P&Cyl, heater boxes & exhaust. Too bad as it has full flow with extra external oil cooler. _________________ Present VW-'69 Ghia Coupe
Former VW's & a few others:
Type 1-'69 Type 1 Rat Rod, '69, '63, '60, '62, '55?? split window in Germany, US Army 1964-66, '64 Baja Bug w/1500S Type 3 engine. Ghia '62, '66.
Type 2- '67 Dual Cab
'?? Vanagon
412 wagen
Dasher wagen
Jetta-GLI, VR6, Golf
TR2,TR3, Austin Healy 3000, MGTD, Porsche Speedster & 3 Model A Fords. Almost forgot-Corvair & Nash Mertopolitan |
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didget69 Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2004 Posts: 4925 Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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David Follett wrote: |
A few more transmission questions if you can advise. I've located two AH transmissions. One ser # starting with 122 and the other 405. I believe they are from a '71 or later Type 1. If so do you think there would be an advantage to use the newer transmission(s) instead of modifying my'69? Not sure until I get home next week what trans the Ghia has. I read a AN model is used in the Ghia and not sure if the AH is stronger or geared better. Again, thank you for previous info. Have decided not to mess with the T4 engine and will probably do a T1 project. Current engine is a '71 with a upper rebuild but has excessive crankshaft end play, new heads, P&Cyl, heater boxes & exhaust. Too bad as it has full flow with extra external oil cooler. |
Good Transmission info:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=492880
bnc _________________ I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door. |
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