Flipping Tie Rods, car wanders bad.

mallred

Good morning fellow gearheads! I've been making a lot of changes to my 64 Bug, 4 wheel Porsche pattern disc brakes, one- off Turbo build, etc. The car handles like shit! I drove this thing to Sacramento (Bugorama) last weekend, and picked up a set of drop spindles for.My question is what all parts do I need to flip my tie rods? When the car is jacked up,tires hanging, tire rods are close to level if I recall correctly. So I think this is my next step.Front toe-in is 1/8". Rear toe is 0. Car is lowered, but not too much, using torsion adjusters. Beam is narrowed 2", and has shock towers, and stock diameter sway bar. Running a camber compensator. Tires are 185-65 front, and 215-65 rear. Car is raked a little, and two sets of caster shims have been installed. Any help appreciated! Not looking for.
a narrative on why it handles bad, I have read all that. I know it can be remedied. [/img]
_________________
Mark Allred

'64 Resto Custom Bug - Daily Driver
'57 Sunroof Bug - Endless Project

Living beneath the Sagebrush Canopy

Nevada Notch · Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 8:01 am Post subject:

If you only have the car lowered slightly, then 2 sets of caster shims has caused too much positive caster. One set is more than enough if the vehicle is only lowered a couple of inches.
_________________
1966 Euro
1600DP
Dual 34mm ICT's
99% Resto-Custom Daily Driver

Miklo · Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 9:28 am Post subject:

^^^
I thought the same thing... One set of castor shims can go long way!

If the castor is off either way it can lead to a sketchy feeling ride.

My slammed beetle handled great with no rake... Last week I installed a pair of taller rear tires, 205/75's, giving me a slight rake. It totally changed the way my bug handles.
_________________
✠Miklo✠
'55 Type1 "Ozma"
'66 Type1 "Charlotte" RIP
Antelope Valley's Mobile Air-Cooled Guru

mallred · Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 9:35 am Post subject:

[urlhttps://m.facebook.com/eaallred?ref=bookmark#!/photo.php?fbid=10206836462896964&id=1438156896&set=a.2061905114076.2127681.1438156896&source=48&refid=17&ref=bookmark&_ft_=top_level_post_id.10206836462896964&__tn__=E[/url] Tried to post a picture to show the front rake of the car, not happening. That was the reason for the second set. I just installed those a week ago. Handling slightly improved. Car is red car on the right, if anyone can get the pic to work.
_________________
Mark Allred

'64 Resto Custom Bug - Daily Driver
'57 Sunroof Bug - Endless Project

Living beneath the Sagebrush Canopy

mallred · Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 10:17 am Post subject:

Think I muddied up my original post a bit 😊
Who sells the spindle tie rod bushings I need to flip my tie rods? Do I need a later tie rod end? What else do I need to know? Thanks!
_________________
Mark Allred

'64 Resto Custom Bug - Daily Driver
'57 Sunroof Bug - Endless Project

Living beneath the Sagebrush Canopy

Miklo · Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 11:15 am Post subject:

Here's a set of flip bushings...
http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C12%2D6613%2D11

Your tie rods/ends are most likely not your problem... unless the ends are toast.

Most do the flip to reduce bump steer.

The spindles need the tie rod arms drilled out for the flipped bushing... I believe you also need later 68+ tie rod ends.

I have an 8" narrowed adjustable beam with dropped spindles and unflipped tie rods, It does just fine. No unpredictable or sketchy ride at all.

If your front/rear toe is correct, I would suspect caster.
_________________
✠Miklo✠
'55 Type1 "Ozma"
'66 Type1 "Charlotte" RIP
Antelope Valley's Mobile Air-Cooled Guru

Bruce · Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 11:28 am Post subject:

It's not too much caster. The only downside to too much caster is stiff steering in parking lots. Modern Mercs have nearly 11º factory.
I know a guy who has FOUR sets of caster shims under the bottom tube of his car and I've driven it. It drives just fine.
_________________

inzel · Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 12:37 pm Post subject:

Miklo · Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 12:50 pm Post subject:

I have to do 4 point turn instead if a 3 point... and run 145/65's up front on my AE 5 Spokes.

Look at my gallery... Next time I have my tank out I will take some more pictures.
_________________
✠Miklo✠
'55 Type1 "Ozma"
'66 Type1 "Charlotte" RIP
Antelope Valley's Mobile Air-Cooled Guru

mallred · Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 12:51 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the link Doug!
Tie rod ends are fine. I am doing this to level the tie rods.
I don't know where to look now besides bump steer and rear toe,
I am seeing a lot of conflicting information on rear toe, anywhere from 1/4" toe in to 1/4" toe out. A couple of drag racers have posted 1/8" toe in. Think I'm more inclined to go with that but?
Steering, king pins, link pins, are all tight. Wheel bearings are snug.
And I'm with Bruce on the caster shims. All more will do is increase high speed stability, and give you big muscles in the parking lot !😊
So it looks like I need a set of bushings, one 68+ LH tie rod end, one 68+ RH tie rod end, and I've got a 5/8" bit. Any other ideas?
_________________
Mark Allred

'64 Resto Custom Bug - Daily Driver
'57 Sunroof Bug - Endless Project

Living beneath the Sagebrush Canopy

MANNAXMAN · Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 12:53 pm Post subject:

mallred · Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 1:06 pm Post subject:

Yes it is! Thanks MANNAXMAN
_________________
Mark Allred

'64 Resto Custom Bug - Daily Driver
'57 Sunroof Bug - Endless Project

Living beneath the Sagebrush Canopy

Miklo · Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 1:24 pm Post subject:

Ive had more luck going with toe OUT on a lowered bug. No more than a 1/4 out. Its just one of those things... You gotta test and tune. Every suspension setup/weight/load is different.

Cool Bugs btw! Cool

_________________
✠Miklo✠
'55 Type1 "Ozma"
'66 Type1 "Charlotte" RIP
Antelope Valley's Mobile Air-Cooled Guru

mallred · Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 1:48 pm Post subject:

Thanks Doug! May have to try both. Family cars coming home from Bugorama Sunday night. Gassing up in Winnemucca. My daughter- in- laws patina 63, my son's Gulf Blue 64, and my red 64 turbo car. Razz

_________________
Mark Allred

'64 Resto Custom Bug - Daily Driver
'57 Sunroof Bug - Endless Project

Living beneath the Sagebrush Canopy

Nevada Notch · Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 2:00 pm Post subject:

That was one long drive all the way from the Elko area!
_________________
1966 Euro
1600DP
Dual 34mm ICT's
99% Resto-Custom Daily Driver

mallred · Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 2:10 pm Post subject:

My kids came in from Salt Lake City, so they had another leg to go the next morning! They probably don't want to play VW for a few days 😊
_________________
Mark Allred

'64 Resto Custom Bug - Daily Driver
'57 Sunroof Bug - Endless Project

Living beneath the Sagebrush Canopy

slalombuggy · Posted: Wed May 27, 2015 7:15 pm Post subject:

I've been playing with VW suspensions for close to 20 years racing my buggy and Beetles.

For high speed stability the more caster the better. When I race at Bonneville I run close to 8* of caster and I can let go of the steering wheel at 120mph without fear. (I've done it) I run 3 sets of shims on my Beetle and 2 on my buggy and the buggy chassis has 4* of caster built into it.

IF you have only lowered your car using adjuster a couple of inches you do not need to flip the tierods. My cars have the beams 2" off the ground and I run them the regular way. Dropped spindles do not change your steering geometry at all, so you don't have to do anything to compensate for using them

For auto-crossing I run toe out in the rear, BUT on the street I run 1/8" toe in, same in the front I run 1/8 toe in, no matter what I'm doing. At Bonneville I run slightly more do to high loads on the wheels at high speeds. DO NOT run toe out. In wet weather or loose road surfaces this can cause the car to hunt badly if one wheel slips and the other doesn't, it's dangerous. The faster you go the more load on the wheels and it forces the wheels to go more toe out and the more the car will dart around.

If you have 1/4 toe in and 2 sets of caster shims the car should be very stable. I'd double check your suspension front and back for something loose.

brad

mallred · Posted: Thu May 28, 2015 7:22 pm Post subject:

Hey Brad,
Thanks for the info, I think as I just have 1/8" front toe with an empty car,
I will put 350 lbs of weight in the front seat and check toe again.
That's about what I had on my trip with me and my daughter.
I'll check all components for tightness again, tie rod angles on loaded front, and add some toe- in to the rear.
Car mostly wanders on deceleration on the flat, and coasting downhill.
It's going to be a week before I can spend some time on this again.
It will be nice to get it sorted out. Thanks everyone for your input!
_________________
Mark Allred

'64 Resto Custom Bug - Daily Driver
'57 Sunroof Bug - Endless Project

Living beneath the Sagebrush Canopy

[email protected]

http://www.aircooled.net/vw-drag-racing-suspension-type-1-aircooled-volkswagens/
_________________
It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!

Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net

"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net

mallred · Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 4:46 am Post subject:

Thank you for the link John!
Hope you guys are doing well.
_________________
Mark Allred

'64 Resto Custom Bug - Daily Driver
'57 Sunroof Bug - Endless Project

Living beneath the Sagebrush Canopy


Hello! Log in or Register \| Help \| Donate \| Buy Shirts	See all banner ads \| Advertise on TheSamba.com

	Forum Index -> Beetle - 1958-1967	All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1