Blue is DEAD - Now returning back to life

Multi69s · Last edited by Multi69s on Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total

Blue is the name we have given to my Squareback. For those of you that have read my posts, you know that I stuffed a mild 2 liter Type 4 engine in it. In fact, I had just written a post where I switched from dual Weber ICTs to 40 DCNFs. The jetting was close, but not quite right, so I ordered some jets and emulsion tubes. They had just come in and I was raring to start experimenting. However, my son wanted to do his first engine rebuild by himself (he's 14). We had an old Honda Trail 70 in the back with a seized piston, so that was his project. However, we were out of engine degreaser.

So I jumped in Blue and drove about 3 miles to the nearest FLAPS. When I was coming home, and just turned onto my street, I heard a very mild mechanical bang, and then I lost a cylinder. I shut it off immediately, and walked about 200 yards to my house to get some human power to push it home. I then popped off the # 3/4 valve cover and the #3 exhaust rocker arm had a huge amount of lash. My 1st thought was a broken pushrod (I used the stock ones), I pulled the rocker arms and it was fine. My next thought was that I lost a cam. So I pulled out the pushrod tube (you can do that on a T4) and using a magnet on a stick pulled out the lifter. It looked great and when I shined my flashlight down the bore, the cam looked good.

Thinking about the bang I heard, I thought broken valve spring. So I looked with my flashlight and felt with my finger, where I couldn't see, and the spring seemed fine. I was scratching my head about now, so I decided to do some measuring. It turned out that the #3 exhaust spring height was about 3/16" lower then all the other valves. This was a OH CRAP moment. I then pulled off the heater box, and shined a light up into the #3 exhaust port, and there was the problem. I was struck with the infamous Type 4 valve seat dropping. The seat wasn't all the way out, but there was a 3/16" gap between the seat and the head. I haven't gotten a chance to pull the head yet, but I do not believe that the seat came all the way out, or that anything struck the piston.

I can't afford to get new heads from the "main" type 4 suppliers, and they don't work on used heads. So it looks like my two options are Rimco, or Brothers. Rimco will do the one seat for $100 or the complete head for $400. Brothers will not do just the one seat, but they will do the whole head for $250.

I have always sent my machine work to Rimco, but I have never had them do seat work. Also, I have never had any experience with Brothers, so I don't know how good their work is. I would like to salvage this head if possible. There has been a lot of time in port and chamber work.

So I am looking for any advice on who to go with and whether just to fix the one seat or have everything done.

One thing I do know, I am going to get me a CHT gauge. However, I am not going VDO. My brother in law used to own a light aircraft repair facility, and he said that he has a couple of good gauges laying around. I think that anything that is made for aviation would be a higher quality then your average gauge.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

Brent · Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:17 am Post subject:

Adrian at Headflow Masters did a really nice job on some 2L heads for me.
Jeorge at EMW is another option and has a good reputation.

Just a couple more to look into, and these guys are Type 4 saavy with good reputations.

I think replacing a single seat is a bad idea. Your other seats have likely seen the same conditions as the one that dropped. Would be a shame if you lost another exhaust valve after you had it off to repair just one.
_________________
69 Fastback Build
Berg5 Build

Bobnotch · Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 7:53 am Post subject:

Nate M. · Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:05 am Post subject:

X3

Do both heads completely. All new seats. I too can vouch for Adrian and Headflow Masters. I would highly doubt that it's just the head though. A "bang" is usually from impacting the piston. Plan on going through the motor completely.

IMHO, "Buy the best and cry once" is the only way to do a motor.
_________________
Regards,

Nate M.

Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature

For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!!

Multi69s · Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 4:55 pm Post subject:

Well, I am one very lucky person Very Happy

. What could have been a catastrophic engine failure, became a lot more easier to manage. As Nate said, there was a good chance that I could have been looking at a total rebuild $$$. I think that the only thing that saved me, is that I shut off the engine immediately.

When I pulled off the head, this is what I found.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The picture looks worse then it really is. You can barely catch a finger nail in the little indentation. The lower end of a Type 4 is so beefy, that I doubt there is any damage, so I will clean up the piston to make sure that there isn't any high spots, and just get the heads fixed. Here is a look at the head. The clean spot on the exhaust valve is from me scraping, not from hitting the piston.

I have decided to get both heads done. I called around for prices, and everyone was about the same $$$. The hardest part was telling my wife what the cost would be Shocked

.

I have narrowed it down to two shops: European Motor Works, or Headflow Masters. Which way would you go?
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

Clatter · Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:24 am Post subject:

I like your chamber work there!
Replicating the 914 2.0 chamber by un-shrouding the plug area.
Cool... Cool

As far as which place to send the heads?
Flip a coin.

Maybe Adrian, because he's closer, and more likely to have his own hand in the process...?
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

Multi69s · Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:03 am Post subject:

I had my heads ported by a true master, that's why I want to salvage them. The funny part is that when he saw the chambers, he said that they sucked, so he worked them as much as he could.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

Clatter · Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:45 pm Post subject:

Might as well go 42 x 36 if your doing seats...
_________________
Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

Multi69s · Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:43 am Post subject:

Clatter,

My main concern by going to bigger valves is the loss of low end. Since I am running a Scat C25 cam (Lift - 0.455", Duration – 272, Duration @ 0.50 - 234), this would not be a high RPM motor. Also since the car has an automatic trans, and I rarely row the shifter, keeping a good low to mid range powerband is more important to me.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

Nate M. · Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:48 am Post subject:

42x36 is not what I would consider large valves for a type4. You will likely need to go up to a 36 on the exhaust just to clean-up the seat pocket. The fact that you have an automatic really limits you on what you can build. . . It's about the same limiting that stick EFI. Ever considered switching to manual?? Then you could actually use that motor to its fullest by putting in a better cam. Just sayin'. Wink

_________________
Regards,

Nate M.

Squarsche build
Heavy Metal Affliction feature

For heaven's sake, put a type4 and a Porsche 5-speed in there. . . It's the right thing to do!!

Multi69s · Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:12 pm Post subject:

Nate,

One of the main reasons that I like this car is because of the automatic. I call it my old fart cruiser car. Sometimes I just want to get in a car and just drive. I live in the central valley of CA, so every time I take a road trip, I have some serious mountain ranges to go through. This is where the torque of the type 4 really shines, and I am afraid of losing that. If I want to play zippy racer, I can jump in my T1 with a 2110, or my Baja with a 2010.

However, I don't drive these cars on road trips anymore, that Blue's job.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

Multi69s · Posted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:26 am Post subject:

Well I decided to go with Headflow Masters, I was watching my T4 Bug Me video, and Raby went with Adrian before he started to do his own heads. While they were fixing the heads I went with larger valves (40 x 36) Got the heads back Monday, and CCd them and the pistons. From having the heads decked, the compression ratio went from 8.1:1 to about 8.55:1. I plan on sticking with that. I have already replaced all crank seals and O-rings, and replaced the gaskets on the fuel pump. I will be adding a CHT gauge to my arsenal. I checked the calibration of the gauge this morning (boiling water), and I am in the process of installing the thermocouple to the head right now (pictures to come).

If there is anything different or unusual, I will throw up pics. I have also learned some tricks about modifying the automatic transmission, and I will post those.

However, for today, it is teach my son day. Over the summer he (with a little help) rebuilt a Honda CT 70 trail bike engine that had sat for 20 years and was also seized up. Today we (he) will install it, and see if it will run.

If you have kids of your own, or even neighborhood kids that like to hang around your garage, never miss the chance to expose them to our mechanical hobbies. Todays society has become a culture of sit in a chair and push a button. It is SO rewarding to expose someone new to the garage life that we lead, and watch the light bulb come on.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

jaxdream · Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:11 am Post subject:

Hate to see your trouble , it seems that fate smiled on ya for shutting the engine off when you did , despite of the circumstances . Checked out your threads on the acquisition of the blue Square ( had one , manual , let it go like a dummy ) , the trans rebuild ( GREATLY appreciated Very Happy

) ,would like to know more of the mods to auto trans you mentioned , any info , when time provides .Hang in there , keep posting more , you seem to have skills that I lack and I do like to read about what other folks can accomplish giving me some more ideas and ways of doing things building confidence in my abilities .

Jack

Multi69s · Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:55 am Post subject:

Got a little bit done this weekend. This is the CHT Gauge that I will be using (got it from brother in law).

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/in/chtgauges_westach/westachchtk29px.php

How ever I got my 14mm thermocouple and extension leads from this company. Hooked everything up and stuck the TC in boiling water, and the gauge read just over 200 degrees. However, one of my concerns was having a sparkplug hole get cross threaded. I've heard too many horror stories about the TCs causing the sparkplug to start crooked, and I want to avoid that.

The first thing that I did was to make the ID of the 14mm TC larger. That way there would plenty of clearance between the TC and the spark plug threads. Next I ground a little off of the head, so the TC could sit flat on the head (see pic below).

Notice in this mounting method with a clip that even though the TC is "held" in place, it can still twist and catch on the plug, not good. So I laid the TC on the head and traced out its shape. However, before I touched my cutter to the head, I made a quick protective device.

Since porting tools like to catch and jump, I was worried that I could hit the sparkplug threads, so I took an old sparkplug, cut it up, and screwed it into the head. No worries now. Once I cut the pattern, I centered the TC around the sparkplug hole, and installed the sparkplug. I then adhered the TC to the head by building up JB Weld On Top of the TC. Once the JB Weld started to get stiff, I pulled out the sparkplug, and checked the alignment of the TC. It looked good so I reinstalled the sparkplug, and let it cure overnight.

About now you are probably thinking, JB Weld, What? Confused

We all know that it sticks to metal pretty good, and I looked up the literature, and it is good up to 550 degrees. Also, it is only on top of the TC, not in between it and the head. After it cured, I drilled a couple of small holes in some fins, and used safety wire to make some strain reliefs.

You can't tell from the angle of the picture above, but there is clearance all the way around the TC and the sparkplug hole.

Gratuitous picture of completed head.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

jaxdream · Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:47 am Post subject:

That looks great !!! Dad gum good idea on the restraining wire & JB weld Wink

( that stuff is sometimes wonderful ). I've often wondered that instead of under the sparkplug , bolting the sensor into that hole to the right where the head temp sensor for D-Jet goes would yield the same results as under the plug . Would make for a less troublesome sensor setup , just haven't read where anyone has tried it and the results from trying it . Keep it going !!!!

Jack

Multi69s · Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:39 am Post subject:

I examined the D-Jet sensor location, and seemed like it would be a good place for a sensor. I stuck a little screwdriver in the hole, and it "seemed" to bottom out on the combustion chamber. However, like yourself, I have always heard not to use it. What would be nice is if someone would run a CHT gauge in both the D-jet location, and the sparkplug at the same time. Then they could compare data, and see just how close the two readings were and how quickly both positions responded to a change in temperature. In my younger days, I would try something like that, but now I just have too many toys, and less energy to spread around. It would be great if someone tried it though.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

jaxdream · Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:36 pm Post subject:

I was reading around , and over on the STF where Ray Greenwood gave a very plausible explanation of the idea of using the D-Jet temp sensor location as to it's not being the best possible location to tap for head temp.
Thanks Ray !!!

Jack

Multi69s · Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:59 pm Post subject:

Well I've quite a bit done. It has been kind of slow going, because when I first built the engine, I used the wrong type of paint for the tin. So it has been a whole lot of sanding and painting, along with the engine rebuild itself. The cylinders were weeping at the bases, so off they came for resealing. I also replaced all seals, gaskets and O rings.

Since the heads were decked, once I got them back on, I doubled checked my rocker geometry.

In order to run the elephant feet adjusters, you have to grind down and chamfer the bottom of the rocker arms. However, I didn't like the clearance of one of the arms. I was afraid that I might run out of adjustment as the valve sank in the seats. So I took a little more off of the bottom, and then centered the rocker in the drill press.

Once the arm was centered, I then chamfered the arm.

Also, when I tore the engine down, I noticed that the thermostat was shot, so time for a new one.

The wire that hooked the thermostat to the flaps was also beginning to unwind and fray. So I soldered the wire to save it.

Previously, I had my oil pressure sending unit screwed into the block with a bunch of convoluted connections. I swapped out those connections with a stainless steel brake line. Since the brake line had a straight thread versus a tapered thread, I wrapped the thread with Teflon tape, and used a crush washer from one of my dirt bike carb kits.

So this is the point where I am at now.

Plus this box of mystery parts showed up today.

And the saga will continue.
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=

jaxdream · Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 6:01 am Post subject:

Looking good Very Happy

! ! ! What are using for the automatic kick down switch ? ? ?

Jack

Multi69s · Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:20 am Post subject:

I have pictures in this thread.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630183&highlight=
_________________
69 road Bug 2110
73 Squareback - 2L, T4, Automatic W/ AC
Gone, but many fond memories 69 Baja Bug 2010 - 5 Rib Bus Transaxle
Gone but not forgotten 72 Baja Bug 2010
My builds
T4 into Squareback http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=458944&highlight=
Auto Trans Rebuild http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=516066&highlight=
AC in Squareback https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...highlight=


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