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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7537
Location: Santa Cruz
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 Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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Love watching, here, too...
A trans rebuild moves you from being a mere Busist,
To a full-blown Busologist!
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Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:40 am Post subject: Re: gear stacks |
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| old DKP driver wrote: |
Once you have it installed in the fixture and pinion nut tightened and forks installed you will see that all will be fine.
It's not important sitting the main shaft & pinion shaft next to each other until Both are installed and tightened.
It all looks good from where I sit.  |
Thanks Chris.
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Wreck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1218
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:36 am Post subject: |
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Great info Steve , I'm in the process of my first 091 as well .
I was going to ask in new thread about the ERCO R&P I've got but if one of the experienced guys helping can answer it that would be great .
On the ring gear it has the ratio and teeth count then D12 051 , which I guess is the deviation . just not sure on the whether it means 1.2mm or 51 thou or .51mm .
I don't have a way of measuring pinion depth as yet and was planning on trying a 0.6mm shim and checking the pattern . will this be in the ball park to start with .
cheers Derek |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| Wreck wrote: |
Great info Steve , I'm in the process of my first 091 as well .
I was going to ask in new thread about the ERCO R&P I've got but if one of the experienced guys helping can answer it that would be great .
On the ring gear it has the ratio and teeth count then D12 051 , which I guess is the deviation . just not sure on the whether it means 1.2mm or 51 thou or .51mm .
I don't have a way of measuring pinion depth as yet and was planning on trying a 0.6mm shim and checking the pattern . will this be in the ball park to start with .
cheers Derek |
Derek - thank you for the complement. It is great you want to give it a go but based on 091 experience but based on my experiences with this 091, I suspect you will need the kit that measures pinion depth. From what I've read, the depth is where the manufacture found it is the quietest and best mesh. Trying to do it with grease or Prussian blue may only get you part way there - and each change will require pressing out, heating the case, hours to let it cool, torqueing it and trying again, repeat. I have not a clue where to get different shims although Weddle may have them.
Frankly rebuilding one of these is a LOT more troublesome than you can imagine and if I could roll time back I would not do this, but rather take it to someone like Eric in San Diego (Transworks - El Cajon) or Mike (BigBore) in Wasilla . Unless you have a new case, the pinion bore will need to be sleeved. That means shipping the case to someone like Donny at DK Machine and Fabrication in SoCal, and then waiting several weeks or more to get it back depending how busy he is because it is a second business for him although he does almost all the 002 and 091 cases for the US. (Unless someone there does the same kind of work). The mainshaft bearing bore will need sleeving too unless it is a new case - or you can buy a used case (original mag/alum alloy, or later aluminum) and gear carrier from Weddle Industries that sleeving has already been done to. You'll find that specialty tools like the press stand are almost a must although you can get around it although it is hard to get a good position on a press without it unless you have some custom steel plates made. Changing the Ring and Pinion may require one of these -
From Paul's Galley. A new complete set is about $4000 USD. Add to that the other tools you will want and need - it is easy to have more in tools than a new highend replacement transmission.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin
Last edited by SGKent on Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Those ERCO R&Ps are supposed to use a .6mm shim. I'd just install it and check the pattern with bluing. The 381 bar is nice, but as with other VW tooling, there are effective alternate methods.
I'd guess that the D12 is the matching number, and 51 means 63.51 pinion depth.
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9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 8:43 am Post subject: |
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Buy a new pinion bearing and sacrifice the old bearing. Machine or grind the old bearing so it is a slip fit on the shaft and in the case. Don't go too far, you still want some interference. This way you do not have to press it off and on or in and out. To change your shim.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong. But you should not have to take the nut to full torque for checking purposes either. Maybe someone has a number for torque for checking.
An old timer used toilet paper as a final check. If it did not tear the paper, it was good.
Good Luck
Tcash |
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sodbuster
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2004
Posts: 1084
Location: wherever my baywindow takes me.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Tcash wrote: |
Buy a new pinion bearing and sacrifice the old bearing. Machine or grind the old bearing so it is a slip fit on the shaft and in the case. Don't go too far, you still want some interference. This way you do not have to press it off and on or in and out. To change your shim.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong. But you should not have to take the nut to full torque for checking purposes either. Maybe someone has a number for torque for checking.
An old timer used toilet paper as a final check. If it did not tear the paper, it was good.
Good Luck
Tcash |
Just be advised that replacing the pinion bearing can change the pinion depth reading as mush as .10mm the spec is the the factory setting +- .03mm.
but since you had the case sleeved the point is moot and you need to start from square 1 with the pinion depth setting. |
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Wreck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1218
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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Steve I agree it would make the job easier with the correct tool.I'm on the other side of the Pacific and have Dangerous Dave as a good trans builder plus Ron Schmidt.
The pinion bore is still ok . A good friend is a machinist and he can turn up a spindle and make a depth tool but he is flat out at the moment. I've replaced an intermediate housing and main shaft bearings on an 002 box before but this is my first full rebuild.
I used to work on toyota Landcruisers on remote gas pipeline construction projects,occasionally having to rebuild gearboxes and diffs with very simple tools.When I first started on those boxes I had an experienced person showing me what to do in person.It makes a big difference.
Thanks Pablo for the info on the deviation and shim and also all the other information you post up , it is a great help. I'll do as I planned and see how the pattern looks. I'm also fitting an ERCO intermediate housing so I can fit the box into a 69 ghia .
cheers Derek |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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tonight's work may have hit a snag. The reverse gear is supposed to clear both 2nd gear and the slider. There is a lot of slop in reverse, I'll probably have to wait until Monday to order parts if Paul and Eric tell me the accumulative wear is causing it and not something I have done. The original reverse had lots of damage to the teeth so I now suspect it is not the PO that caused it through reverse grinding, but the slop in the linkage allowing the gear to rub the slider.
You can see the damage to the teeth on the old gear.
Link
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old DKP driver
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2005
Posts: 4145
Location: Los Gatos,Ca.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:25 pm Post subject: reverse gear engagement |
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You really need to put the fixture in a vise rather than have it sitting like in your video. VW
Like I said before, all the adjustments require splitting hairs including reverse.
there will always be play in the relay lever and, if you move it after reverse is engaged (by hand) then it won't be accurate when installed.
Yes reverse gear comes close to second gear and the reason reverse gear is damaged is mainly because of it's softness compared to other gears.
every trans I did needed reverse & 1st &2nd slider replaced do to poor engagement and the soft reverse gear.
Think about it  backing up even a bug is a lot of stress on that little
gear. and engagement from the gearshift to reverse gear is a long way away.
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V.W.owner since 1967 |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12721
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: reverse gear engagement |
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| old DKP driver wrote: |
Think about it backing up even a bug is a lot of stress on that little
gear. and engagement from the gearshift to reverse gear is a long way away. |
Then add the wear from all the punks who do not wait for the bus to fully stop before swapping directions, going from first to unsynchronized reverse in a parking lot and whatnot… 
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Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
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Brian
Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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I may abuse my trans, but I am not guilty of that unfavorable sin.
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Wash your hands
'69 Bug
'68 Baja Truck
'71 Bug
'68 Camper
Only losers litter |
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old DKP driver
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2005
Posts: 4145
Location: Los Gatos,Ca.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:47 pm Post subject: Abuse |
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Heck Brian, it's really not abuse but, around 1973 VW went shitty with parts
and I probably rebuilt 50 manual transmissions just for the shitty reverse engagement not only in buses but also in bugs.
all we did was pull em apart but a new slider and synchronizer's along with reverse gear. and they were good to go 
But You know all the travel from the gear shift lever to the hockey stick is
always subjective
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:09 am Post subject: |
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agreed. I took it out of the vise to take the AVI photos as Cathy could not get light on it with the camera when it was in the vise.
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Hoody
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 1948
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quite possibly the most complex rebuild ever on the Samba....boy am I glad my 091 only has 133,000 original miles and was babied its whole life. Keep up the good work Steve! |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Hoody wrote: |
| Quite possibly the most complex rebuild ever on the Samba....boy am I glad my 091 only has 133,000 original miles and was babied its whole life. Keep up the good work Steve! |
Rick says 150,000 miles is about where they start needing rebuilding. This one had either 108,000 or 208,000 on it when we bought it. Receipts and wear can be interpreted either way.
(New) case main shaft bearings, and (old) reverse shaft, (new) gear etc, and bearing installed. The reverse gear circlip takes a special tool or some creativity to install properly.
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sodbuster
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2004
Posts: 1084
Location: wherever my baywindow takes me.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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Yea all that fun started when VW redesigned the t.1 and t.2 gearboxes and went with the slotted reverse gear that is actuated with a spade piece that fits in the slot instead of a fork arrangement that the earlier models had.
there are quite a few adjustments that can be made to the reverse linkage portion of the gear carrier to tighten up some of the slop that can happen. Knowing all that had to come off to do the machine work to the carrier itself just tells me this may be the case. Go have a look at area and see if it can be sorted out with adjustment. The mount brackets for the linkage crossbar are slotted and can easily moved around to help take up slack. the bent rod that the pivot piece mounts to on the selector shaft side is adjustable as well. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| sodbuster wrote: |
Yea all that fun started when VW redesigned the t.1 and t.2 gearboxes and went with the slotted reverse gear that is actuated with a spade piece that fits in the slot instead of a fork arrangement that the earlier models had.
there are quite a few adjustments that can be made to the reverse linkage portion of the gear carrier to tighten up some of the slop that can happen. Knowing all that had to come off to do the machine work to the carrier itself just tells me this may be the case. Go have a look at area and see if it can be sorted out with adjustment. The mount brackets for the linkage crossbar are slotted and can easily moved around to help take up slack. the bent rod that the pivot piece mounts to on the selector shaft side is adjustable as well. |
It adjusts fine - the problem is that the slop allows it to hit the gear or slider if it is slightly pushed towards either. Both brackets are tight against each other and I don't want to eliminate slop by cocking things to make up for wear. There are new old stock reverse relay parts that came in today to see how much of the slop they will get rid of. If not it will go to Eric for tweaking on the reverse. He said sometimes the gear has to be narrowed for extra clearance if the slop is too much.
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sodbuster
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2004
Posts: 1084
Location: wherever my baywindow takes me.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| sodbuster wrote: |
Yea all that fun started when VW redesigned the t.1 and t.2 gearboxes and went with the slotted reverse gear that is actuated with a spade piece that fits in the slot instead of a fork arrangement that the earlier models had.
there are quite a few adjustments that can be made to the reverse linkage portion of the gear carrier to tighten up some of the slop that can happen. Knowing all that had to come off to do the machine work to the carrier itself just tells me this may be the case. Go have a look at area and see if it can be sorted out with adjustment. The mount brackets for the linkage crossbar are slotted and can easily moved around to help take up slack. the bent rod that the pivot piece mounts to on the selector shaft side is adjustable as well. |
It adjusts fine - the problem is that the slop allows it to hit the gear or slider if it is slightly pushed towards either. Both brackets are tight against each other and I don't want to eliminate slop by cocking things to make up for wear. There are new old stock reverse relay parts that came in today to see how much of the slop they will get rid of. If not it will go to Eric for tweaking on the reverse. He said sometimes the gear has to be narrowed for extra clearance if the slop is too much. |
I did not mean to imply "cocking things" was something to be done here. the word I used was adjusting. look close at the linkage itself. see where the play is coming from. 9 out of 10 times it can be adjusted out. I would think if the old gear had no other damage then from being banged once in awhile from a miss-shift. And was not hitting the slider or second gear to begin with when it was taken apart. you need to take a closer look at the linkage or the new revere gear was manufactured wrong out of the box and people such as yourself now have to scramble to compensate for the manufacturing mistake when the part is installed. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| sodbuster wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| sodbuster wrote: |
Yea all that fun started when VW redesigned the t.1 and t.2 gearboxes and went with the slotted reverse gear that is actuated with a spade piece that fits in the slot instead of a fork arrangement that the earlier models had.
there are quite a few adjustments that can be made to the reverse linkage portion of the gear carrier to tighten up some of the slop that can happen. Knowing all that had to come off to do the machine work to the carrier itself just tells me this may be the case. Go have a look at area and see if it can be sorted out with adjustment. The mount brackets for the linkage crossbar are slotted and can easily moved around to help take up slack. the bent rod that the pivot piece mounts to on the selector shaft side is adjustable as well. |
It adjusts fine - the problem is that the slop allows it to hit the gear or slider if it is slightly pushed towards either. Both brackets are tight against each other and I don't want to eliminate slop by cocking things to make up for wear. There are new old stock reverse relay parts that came in today to see how much of the slop they will get rid of. If not it will go to Eric for tweaking on the reverse. He said sometimes the gear has to be narrowed for extra clearance if the slop is too much. |
I did not mean to imply "cocking things" was something to be done here. the word I used was adjusting. look close at the linkage itself. see where the play is coming from. 9 out of 10 times it can be adjusted out. I would think if the old gear had no other damage then from being banged once in awhile from a miss-shift. And was not hitting the slider or second gear to begin with when it was taken apart. you need to take a closer look at the linkage or the new revere gear was manufactured wrong out of the box and people such as yourself now have to scramble to compensate for the manufacturing mistake when the part is installed. |
old reverse is the top right hand gear. The amount of slop that needs to go away is about the width missing on the reverse teeth. The play seems to be between where the shaft slides between the brackets. There is also a little wear on the relay arm pivot. I'll know more tonight when I compare the old vs new parts.
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