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engineerscott
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2005
Posts: 455
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 Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| 6.90 bug wrote: |
as far as the reason hondas with the same displacement are faster is a few things. 1-even though they have about the same cc's they have more stroke. stroke equals torque and horsepower. 2-they are fuel injected.this doesnt necessarilly make a ton more power but it is more efficient. 3- they have 4 valves per cylinder. that allows more fuel with less of a wild cam.
these reasons are pretty general but sad to say they are true. they are so true that a company has been trying to make a 4 cylinder head for a vw motor for a while but i dont they have got it figured out yet. |
Another big reason that those Hondas, Nissans, etc. make more horsepower per cc is that they have overhead cams. Overhead cams have much less reciprocating mass in the valve train. This means they can run and make horsepower/torque at higher RPMs. A stock VW engine is going to poop out at what - about 4,000 RPM? Your average stock Japanese overhead cam engine is going to run up to maybe 6,500 RPM (or even a bit more). Big difference. And yes, the multi-valves do a better job of getting air in and out of the engine. Fuel injection gives you a damn near perfect air/fuel mixture at all throttle positions and loads regardless of ambient air temps. Carburetors will only get you close at a small range of throttle positions and ambient conditions.
The biggest advantage that your VW engine has is the fact that it is aircooled. The block is lighter and you aren't carrying the extra weight of the radiator, water, etc.. Unfortunately, in stock tuning this advantage doesn't come close to making up for the 50+ years of improvements that your buddy's Honda comes with off the showroom floor.
You can however do much with a VW engine. More displacement, improve the intake/exhaust valves/cams, fuel injection, solid state ignition, etc., etc.. It all depends on the depth of your wallet. A VW engine is capable of making fairly impressive horsepower/lbs ratios, though the more exotic you get the less of a daily driver you are going to have. |
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bugninva
Samba Member
Joined: December 14, 2004
Posts: 8858
Location: sound it out.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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wow.. back from the dead!! to stiltwalker, if you want the 1914, you can get 94's turned down to the 90.5/92 case size... I don't advice building the engine just to get it done now with thoughts that you can upgrade heads and such later... that is counterproductive, and you may never be happy with the engine... to it once, and do it right, you'll thank me for it later. 
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| With a show of hands, who has built over 1000 engines in the last 25 years? Anyone? |
GEX has. Just sayin |
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Onedrop01
Samba Member
Joined: August 11, 2008
Posts: 99
Location: Las Vegas NV.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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WOW...... i'm new to the vw world and learning is what i'm doing. i must say this is good stuff. i'm sure you guys can go on and on about engine works. and that's cool, i'll read it all. lol.
well i think metric autohause put it best
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| There are alot of people telling you that you should go bigger, and I won't argue that fact. But the best way to get your power, is to spend your money on good heads, a nice cam, ratio rockers. Power is made with the head choice. You can build a powerhouse of a 1776, with good parts that will kill a cheaply built 1914. Save your money, and buy good proven parts (not chinese crap), then assemble your beast. |
i'll go ahead and get a nice 1776 for my 67 and chill with that. |
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stiltwalker39
Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Buford Ga.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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All the machine work is done and I will be picking up the block and all the other parts early this week coming. I thought about finding another case and having the machine work done and sell the case I have in the shop for what I can get out of it. That would be the cheapest way out. So for now I will just stew on it.
I have the body off the chasse and the chasse is complete and ready to go. I will bring the body in this weekend and start disassembling it and I will start restoring it. The motor is just one of the costs of this project. I still have bodywork, interior and paint to go along with tires. I may be stock with the 1776 since I would need to come up with about $400 to $600 for a used bock with the machine work done. It’s all about the money.
Yes, You are right, I will not be happy until I get the 1915. That’s for sure!!!!
Carl |
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bill may
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2003
Posts: 14160
Location: san diego,ca
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| NorCalLowLife209 wrote: |
| If you want to build an engine why do some people say its not a good idea to build of a stock case.I forgot what is was called.But my freind says if i want to start biulding off my engine i need a AS41 case. Why is that? |
all non fuel injected type1 vw cases are AS41 except for a very few aluminum 36hp cases. fuel injected beetle had AS21 case which has 8% more aluminum than AS41 case. maybe he means you should use a AS21 case?
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Admin note: Bill Passed away - July, 2017
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"Camping is cheaper than therapy"
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=453617 |
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hoghead5150
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Joined: May 03, 2007
Posts: 989
Location: oklahoma
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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i may have missed something, but did you say you were going to use the stock crank? if so, don't worry about much performance add on's. a stock crank isn't good for anything over about 4500 rpm's. it'll beat the hell out of the inside of the case. buy a counterweighted crank at least. and if your stuck with the 90.5 bore, and you haven't bought a crank yet, step up to a small stroker crank. it'll make up for your lack of bore!
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"i got a friend that knows a guy who's best friend has an uncle that used to have a bug just like yours!"
i measured once, cut it three times, and the damn thing is STILL to short! |
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engineerscott
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2005
Posts: 455
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| Posted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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| hoghead5150 wrote: |
| i may have missed something, but did you say you were going to use the stock crank? if so, don't worry about much performance add on's. a stock crank isn't good for anything over about 4500 rpm's. it'll beat the hell out of the inside of the case. buy a counterweighted crank at least. and if your stuck with the 90.5 bore, and you haven't bought a crank yet, step up to a small stroker crank. it'll make up for your lack of bore! |
x2 on what he just said. A stock crank is going to limit your top end RPMs. Like this poster said, it will pound the hell out of the bearing saddle surfaces if you try to rev past 4500 RPMs or so or it may even break the crankshaft. Even if you don't go for a stroker crank you need counter weighting if you want more RPMs, however if you are going to spring for the counterweighted crank you might as well increase your stroke while you're there (isn't going to cost you much more).
All that will do however is make sure that your crank doesn't destroy itself or your case at higher RPMs. To actually make useful power at higher RPMs you need to address the intake and exhaust valves and their ancillaries. Because of the high reciprocating mass of an overhead valve (as opposed to overhead cam) engine you will need stronger valve springs to make the valves close more quickly at high RPMs. How much stronger depends on how many RPMs you intend to turn, the higher the RPMs the stronger the springs you will need. However, at some point the stronger valve springs start to cause excessive wear of your tappets and in extreme cases of the cam itself (because of the increased force they exert between the tappet surface and the cam lobe). You can go to hardened tool steel tappets which will help considerably and at some point (as valve spring strength further increases) you have to start looking at roller bearing tappets (though to be honest, I've never looked for such a beast for a VW application and don't know if they are commercially available - others with more knowledge can probably chime in here). If you don't go to stronger valve springs the stock springs will cause the valves to "float" at high RPMs, i.e. the spring isn't strong enough to force the valve to close fully during the time available before the cam lobe comes back around to re-open it. You end up with a lot of intake and exhaust valve "overlap" which results in wasted power.
Lighter pushrods are another way to address this issue. They reduce the reciprocating mass so that for a given valve spring strength the valves will close faster. Of course there are all sorts of trade-offs here between pushrod weight versus strength. If you go to a lighter material like aluminum you are going to get a pushrod that is easier to bend or break. More exotic materials like titanium will give you both light weight and good strength but are very spendy. And of course you can do a mix of both, lighter pushrods and heavier valve springs.
Getting more power is a balancing act. Over spec'ing one part of your engine without upgrading other necessary parts will result in at best poor bang for the buck and at worst a motor with a very short service life. It isn't just a matter of more CC's. Things must be upgraded in harmony with each other and with what you expect to get out of the motor. |
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stiltwalker39
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Joined: December 13, 2008
Posts: 16
Location: Buford Ga.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Well at this point it will be a stock crank, stock heads and a 110 cam with dual carbs. That will be as good as it gets this year for my 1776. I will save my money and in a year or so try and go to a 2.???? Something. Maybe a turn key motor delivered to my door. I have to finish the bug or I won’t even have a bug to put it in. Summer will be here soon and I want to ride. Not just look at it sitting collecting dust. There is too many of them now just sitting in people’s garages.
I want to ride!!! That’s what it’s all about at this point. Get-er done!!
Carl |
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jandrewthompson
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2008
Posts: 108
Location: Bloomington, IL
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| Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| If you go to a lighter material like aluminum you are going to get a pushrod that is easier to bend or break. |
Isn't the stock pushrod already made of aluminum?
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'67 Zenith Blue Beetle |
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75_Buggy
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2009
Posts: 1
Location: Santa Barbara
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| I just got a 1776 with an Engle 110 cam for my buggy. Nothing esle. How many Horse Power would this engine put out? |
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SLMD61
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2008
Posts: 30
Location: Cumberland B.C. Canada
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:40 am Post subject: |
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Engine swap? will a 2.2 fi. engine fit in a 61 bug?
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go bug or go home |
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vincesco
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2010
Posts: 34
Location: Orlando
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| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Travis wrote: |
| Kafer Wolf wrote: |
i've read that all you have to do to convert a 1600 to 1776 is replace the stock cylinders with larger ones. the stock crankshaft will still work.
but can you still use your stock pistons? or should you use larger piston rings? |
You need larger pistons and cylinders and you need to bore the case and heads. |
Do you have to bore in order to fit the 1776 pistons? (90.5mm)
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74 Bay w/ 1641 DP |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31378
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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I just consulted with the mechanic who built my 1835 engine. Yes, that was me. I've run 1835cc since 1976, in Arizona, no overheating issues, no cracked cylinder heads, etc. I have plenty of added power, daily driver type use. I've made numerous trips across the desert
Mine has stock crankshaft, not counterweighted, and stock cam. Cylinder heads are dual-port, bored for the 92s, but overwise stock rebuilds. Carb is single Weber 40DCNF (hey, I said from the 1970s) on matching manifold from Claude's Buggies (now CB), quiet exhaust, 009 distributor (1976 version), stock rockers. I use oil pump 26mm with built-in filter, Maxi-2 from CB, and an external oil cooler forward of the shroud, because the engine I used to build it was originally a 1970 single port without doghouse, and I wanted to get rid of the stock oil cooler that was blocking cooling from #3 and #4 (that's what was done in the 1970s). Transmission is stock, never out or rebuilt (1971), the clutch pressure plate and disc are also stock.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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veedubfreak59
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Joined: February 22, 2010
Posts: 228
Location: Denver, CO
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| Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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What would you folks suggest for a weekend warrior 59 ragtop that will by no means be a daily driver. I want something fast that wont blow up on me when it gets beat on during the weekend. Seeing as the car is a field find, the original motor/transmission are going into a corner never to be touched. My dad keeps telling me to just go with a cammed 1641 and a progressive carb, but i want more. Money isn't really an issue as i plan to spend whatever is needed to get the car where i want it.
What's the biggest displacement/horsepower you can get out of a single progressive carb? I really don't want to deal with the hassle that comes with dual carbs, unless its easier to set up than it was 15 years ago. |
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bertha64
Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2010
Posts: 32
Location: tampa florida
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2010 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| stiltwalker39 wrote: |
All the machine work is done and I will be picking up the block and all the other parts early this week coming. I thought about finding another case and having the machine work done and sell the case I have in the shop for what I can get out of it. That would be the cheapest way out. So for now I will just stew on it.
I have the body off the chasse and the chasse is complete and ready to go. I will bring the body in this weekend and start disassembling it and I will start restoring it. The motor is just one of the costs of this project. I still have bodywork, interior and paint to go along with tires. I may be stock with the 1776 since I would need to come up with about $400 to $600 for a used bock with the machine work done. It’s all about the money.
Yes, You are right, I will not be happy until I get the 1915. That’s for sure!!!!
Carl |
| Quote: |
| i fell your pain with all that work im doing the same thing to my 64.but if you want to get on the road faster go with the 1776 done right you will be happy and want notice to much difference.i had a 1915 in my 72 before it got totaled and had a little more top end but my 4year old 1776 in my 64 has more off the line and seems to run out smoother.its all it the way its built and the tranny i guess.and you can always build anoter latter wile your on the road having fun. |
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oldmanmark
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2006
Posts: 842
Location: n.w. indiana,chicagoland
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| whatever size you build put the money in the heads,get a dpr crank and get all the major rotateing parts balanced includeing rods and pistons. the search function is your source. |
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Zundfolge1432 
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Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12467
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 7:14 am Post subject: |
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rubyparts
Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2006
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 12:26 pm Post subject: case machining |
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stiltwalker39 said that the work shop didn`t machine the case because of the bigger case savers "what dose it mean???"
because i want to machine my case next week , my work shop is doing this job for the first time "that`s my country" he bored cases for me to a 90.5`s about 4 engines last year and they are all 1776 also the are the only ones that wear built in my country .
so i don`t want to miss my case "help me " with any information !!
Thank`s |
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pantone149
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Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 1018
Location: Mt. Shasta
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| If you've got a stock 1600 and bump its displacement to 1776 or 1835 there will be little horsepower increase, if any at all. The reason is that the stock carburetor and exhaust are too small to feed the extra displacement. To get real power out of the bigger motor you need more air and fuel going in and more stinky stuff going out. You'd need dual carbs plus headers to make it compete with a Honda (plus about 70 years of technical innovation). |
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bill may
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2003
Posts: 14160
Location: san diego,ca
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| veedubfreak59 wrote: |
What's the biggest displacement/horsepower you can get out of a single progressive carb? |
the ford pinto carb will get about 30 hp from a 40 hp volkswagen engine. your hair may turn gray before you get it dialed in perfect. you can use a stock solex single barrel carb on a 2 liter engine.
_________________
Admin note: Bill Passed away - July, 2017
1965 panel bus-Kermit
"Camping is cheaper than therapy"
www.sv2s.com
www.steeringboxscrapers.net
SBS #100
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=453617 |
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