| Author |
Message |
VWinVT
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2013
Posts: 1541
Location: North East Kingdom
|
 Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:25 pm Post subject: CV Joint Bolts Loose... |
 |
|
after our last camping trip, I noticed a bit of a clunk when reversing into our spot. Today I got under the van and low and behold 18 of the 24 bolts were not fully torqued down to 33 ft.lbs. is this common for them to slowly backout? Should I add this to my yearly maintenance check? Is loctite used on these bolts to prevent this?
Thanks
_________________
1981 Westfalia with a 2001 Cabrio ABA
Small wheel turns by the firing rod,
Big wheel turns by the grace of God.
Every time that wheel turns 'round,
You're bound to cover just a little more ground. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16501
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, check them yearly or more often if this is an issue. I would not use locktite for risk of not being able to remove when doing maintenance, maybe blue if ever... I torque mine down in two stages, 20 ft.lbs then 36 ft.lbs then check after 100 miles and they stay tight (so far), for the last 400,000 miles I have not had one loosen, but I know that plenty of folks do have that issue so mine may be the exception. YMMV.
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10369
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
when I first did my CV's (first time) I used blue Loctite. It held fine but was a minor pain to clean up. Just re-did CV's. Did not use Loctite. Still holding fine. I was VERY careful to evenly torque the fasteners in diagonal pattern. (like final torque on vehicle wheel)
Check that each bolt has the correct serrated washer between bolt head and metal plate thing.
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VWinVT
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2013
Posts: 1541
Location: North East Kingdom
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
when I first did my CV's (first time) I used blue Loctite. It held fine but was a minor pain to clean up. Just re-did CV's. Did not use Loctite. Still holding fine. I was VERY careful to evenly torque the fasteners in diagonal pattern. (like final torque on vehicle wheel)
Check that each bolt has the correct serrated washer between bolt head and metal plate thing.
Neil. |
Hmmm...i did not see any serated washers on any of them... The metal clips were in place, but no washers....looks like a trip to the hardware store is in order.
_________________
1981 Westfalia with a 2001 Cabrio ABA
Small wheel turns by the firing rod,
Big wheel turns by the grace of God.
Every time that wheel turns 'round,
You're bound to cover just a little more ground. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kustomizingkid
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2014
Posts: 142
Location: Minneapolis, MN
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| They are one time use... Big part of why they come loose. Get a fresh set of bolts. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
T3 Pilot
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2011
Posts: 1507
Location: Deep South of the Great White North
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tarandusVDub
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010
Posts: 1649
Location: Between Here and There
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kustomizingkid wrote: |
| They are one time use... Big part of why they come loose. Get a fresh set of bolts. |
So the bolts need to be replaced each time?
Had not read or heard of this before...
_________________
1990 Syncro 16" DoppleKabine 2.1 DJ 112i
________________________
Sold: 1972 Bay Campmobile; 1984 Westy, base model, 2WD. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
that might be because it is completely incorrect - the "bolts" (cap screws) can be reused for decades - carefully inspect the threads and the wrenching fixtures on them
they are NOT one time use only
BUT!!! the Schnorr washers ARE one time use - many threads here on this so find them and read carefully the part about cleanliness of threads
and NO do not use something else form a local hardware store - a trip to the hardware store is not in order
I would also add the moon plates as used on Porsche 911 CV joints (up until 1980s cost cutting resulted in their deletion)
Blue Loctite will not kill you but is not needed if you do it right
so it wrong and you can see what a flailing steel rod can do to tranny & engine when it is swung around at the same high speeds as a mower blade |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tarandusVDub
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010
Posts: 1649
Location: Between Here and There
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Bad to not use the washers? I've done it both ways and haven't had them loosen on me without them...
_________________
1990 Syncro 16" DoppleKabine 2.1 DJ 112i
________________________
Sold: 1972 Bay Campmobile; 1984 Westy, base model, 2WD. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vanis13
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010
Posts: 3092
Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
nice link.
anyone have a source for these at a good price? thinking I'd like to order like a box or something.
hate paying $3 ($0.25/ea x 12 Go Westy plush shipping if not w/another order - I wish I could just drill a hole in a quarter) to $13 ($0.95/eax12 local VW service shop) each time I want to remove a CV axle.
_________________
83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If the bolts are too loose they will fatigue and thus are more apt to break down the road even if later tightened to spec. If the bolt has been properly torqued and stayed that way then I don't have qualms about reusing them.
The Bay Window guys fight themselves over these bolts as the early torque spec for them is a measly 24 ft*lbs, and thus the bolts tend to come loose and their steel fatigues. The Bay guys do all kinds of stuff to try and fix their issue, cleaning the threads of all grease, using Loctite, wiring the bolts heads, etc, but seem morbidly afraid to use VW updated torque spec of 33 ft*lbs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Vanagon Nut
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008
Posts: 10369
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I wasn't aware that those washers weren't re-usable. That said, I've reused them with Loctite on threads. Not saying that is correct however.
It also can't hurt to make sure the CV and flange faces are totally clean and that threaded holes are clean and free of CV grease.
Neil.
_________________
1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Randy in Maine
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16501
Location: Brookeville, MD
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Wildthings wrote: |
If the bolts are too loose they will fatigue and thus are more apt to break down the road even if later tightened to spec. If the bolt has been properly torqued and stayed that way then I don't have qualms about reusing them.
The Bay Window guys fight themselves over these bolts as the early torque spec for them is a measly 24 ft*lbs, and thus the bolts tend to come loose and their steel fatigues. The Bay guys do all kinds of stuff to try and fix their issue, cleaning the threads of all grease, using Loctite, wiring the bolts heads, etc, but seem morbidly afraid to use VW updated torque spec of 33 ft*lbs. |
Good point - if the bolt loosens it will be loaded in SHEAR with the full torque of the engine & trans.
The job of the bolts is NOT to transfer torque as is usually assumed. The powertrain torque is transmitted by the flange surfaces. The bolts keep those surfaces tightly pressed together.
So to amend my earlier post: The bolts are reusable (after inspection) when properly installed and used. IF you (or a PO or a "perfessionale" mechanic) eff up, then replace them all. I also like to replace anything older than 50 years on a vehicle... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I know that lots of racers use the Belleville washers. The cost of the Schnorr washers is not high when you realize how infrequently you need to remove the CV axles (you guys are dropping the entire powertrain for a rebuild after each weekly vanagon race are you?) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Merian wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
If the bolts are too loose they will fatigue and thus are more apt to break down the road even if later tightened to spec. If the bolt has been properly torqued and stayed that way then I don't have qualms about reusing them.
The Bay Window guys fight themselves over these bolts as the early torque spec for them is a measly 24 ft*lbs, and thus the bolts tend to come loose and their steel fatigues. The Bay guys do all kinds of stuff to try and fix their issue, cleaning the threads of all grease, using Loctite, wiring the bolts heads, etc, but seem morbidly afraid to use VW updated torque spec of 33 ft*lbs. |
Good point - if the bolt loosens it will be loaded in SHEAR with the full torque of the engine & trans. |
It is not only the shear load, but any oscillating load that causes fatigue in a poorly torqued fastener. If when you go to remove a CV and you find that the threads of the bolts are being damaged as you remove them, then you know the CV joint has shifted in relation to the flange. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VWinVT
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2013
Posts: 1541
Location: North East Kingdom
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
As I mentioned earlier, I did not notice washers being in place...but I didn't look either. As would be expected, there was grease and grime. Do theses washers extend beyond the edges of the bolts, or do they sit flush with the edges which would make them hard to spot under the gunk?
I guess I am feeling paranoid, but would rather not replace them if I don't need to. I guess I will go back out and inext more closely tomorrow.... Sigh....
_________________
1981 Westfalia with a 2001 Cabrio ABA
Small wheel turns by the firing rod,
Big wheel turns by the grace of God.
Every time that wheel turns 'round,
You're bound to cover just a little more ground. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50337
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| VWinVT wrote: |
As I mentioned earlier, I did not notice washers being in place...but I didn't look either. As would be expected, there was grease and grime. Do theses washers extend beyond the edges of the bolts, or do they sit flush with the edges which would make them hard to spot under the gunk?
I guess I am feeling paranoid, but would rather not replace them if I don't need to. I guess I will go back out and inext more closely tomorrow.... Sigh.... |
They are very thin and barely larger in diameter than the bolt head. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
VWinVT
Samba Member
Joined: April 21, 2013
Posts: 1541
Location: North East Kingdom
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Wildthings wrote: |
| VWinVT wrote: |
As I mentioned earlier, I did not notice washers being in place...but I didn't look either. As would be expected, there was grease and grime. Do theses washers extend beyond the edges of the bolts, or do they sit flush with the edges which would make them hard to spot under the gunk?
I guess I am feeling paranoid, but would rather not replace them if I don't need to. I guess I will go back out and inext more closely tomorrow.... Sigh.... |
They are very thin and barely larger in diameter than the bolt head. |
Aha! All is not lost!  I will still go and check tomorrow.
_________________
1981 Westfalia with a 2001 Cabrio ABA
Small wheel turns by the firing rod,
Big wheel turns by the grace of God.
Every time that wheel turns 'round,
You're bound to cover just a little more ground. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
