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Serious help needed - engine won't run
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csherrill2
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:56 pm    Post subject: Serious help needed - engine won't run Reply with quote

I have exhausted all of my resorts, (with the exception of taking my car to a qualified VW mechanic for labor rates of 80 dollars an hour, plus 3 hours of travel time). So I am on the famous Samba where I normally get help from.

Here is my dilemma-

Grandfather wants me to get a project car running and on the road before he passes away, but I have been working on this car for over 2 months now. Biggest thing I am worried about right now is getting the original engine running. After that I should be groovy.

My car-

1970 VW Karmann Ghia with the 1.6LOH engine. What I have done to it: Resurfaced both heads to new specs, new pistons, new piston sleeves, new pins, new gaskets from OEM source. Rebuilt carb myself and cleaned every needle and orifice. Checked timing several times, and adjusted the valves before I put the engine back in. I have checked the coil's resistance, and it seems within spec's. I have the correct firing order, and tried to adjust the ignition advance/retard to fine tune, but this thing doesnt even sputter anymore, it just rolls the engine via the starter. and I hate to burn my starter up to try and trouble shoot. I have enough fuel, and even used starting fluid to try it even more. I do not have points, I have electronic ignition with new plugs and newish plug wires. What would cause this car to simply not even run? IF you need a question answered to help me, please dont hesitate to ask.
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c21darrel
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gas, air and spark.
Its common to mess up the firing order on plug wires. Double, triple check. Post a pic.
Try points, the elec ignitions are on or off, yours may be bad. Lets eliminate it. Are you using an 009 dist?
Are you getting fuel to carb?
How did you time?
Do you have the john muir idiot book? He walks you through the whole enchilada.
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CiderGuy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where did you replace gaskets ? Did you set the timing to tdc ( top dead center ) ? Did you set the points ?
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csherrill2
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I have basically done all gaskets without breaking open the case. Valve guide tube seals, all seals for pistons sleeves, oil pump seals, oil strainer seals, Front main seal. When I rebuilt the carb I used all the seals that was included in the packet, which was more than what I actually needed. The timing on the car was confirmed by a local shop.

Engine is:
FLYWHEEL SIDE OF ENGINE
3 1
4 2

Distributor is:
3 2
4 1

When I hook up the plug wires from the Distributor I put it on the corresponding engine cylinder. Such as, Timing side 1, goes to cylinder number 1, Timing side 2 goes to cylinder 2, etc.

I know a lot about cars, but this one has me stumped!!!
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swhitcomb
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A. You are missing some very important engine tin. The cylinder tin is required and I don't know why I keep seeing so many people leave it out.

B. Are you sure the distributor is indexed properly?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swhitcomb wrote:
A. You are missing some very important engine tin. The cylinder tin is required and I don't know why I keep seeing so many people leave it out.

B. Are you sure the distributor is indexed properly?


A. Without the fan belt the tin is completely irrelevant.

B. If the distributor is indexed correctly the spark plug wires are not.
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iowegian Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Electric fuel pump? Confused
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Bleyseng
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't run because you don't have any fuel (pump) going to the carb. You have half a engine that if you run it without the correct cooling tin it will quickly overheat and freeze....
It is like running a water cooled engine with no water!
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csherrill2
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome ideas everyone. but firsthand, the engine tins are the most common reply. I do not see how relevant the RUNNING of the engine is with the tins in place. I know I left them out for now. I want to have as little time and effort into this engine as possible to make sure everything is correct or not... the electrical of this car is a rats nest, but I want to make sure this car RUNS before I dedicate too much. It is a 600 dollar car, that sat in a outdoor shed for 4 years. All I want is to hear this engine run y'all. I will perfect it later. Engine was set at TDC on the number 1 piston, on compression stroke, aligned with the distributor gear as verification as per the OEM repair manual. I HAVE NOT TESTED SPARK ON EVERY CYLINDER ONLY NUMBER 1 (TDC) I am looking for any possible cause, yes I still have the points system but would rather use a electronic ignition since we already have one installed on the car.
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csherrill2
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OH and I saw something about the fuel pump. I have one on order should be here tomorrow, but in the mean time I am manually supplying the fuel through the carb fuel intake. That is why the fuel pump is off in these pictures. But I am still able to get fuel into the intake manifold on both sides.
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didget69
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was distributor drive gear removed from engine at any point? Was crankshaft rotated at anytime when distributor was not installed? Have you verified that distributor drive gear is in proper orientation in relation to #1 piston being at TDC?

Start with the basics. Reinstall points distributor with new points/condensor/cap/rotor. Static time distributor with test light to get a baseline set. Arrange plug wires in correct orientation.

Your electric fuel pump needs to be a 1-3psi version.

Check your grounds.

bnc
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csherrill2
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

didget69 wrote:
Was distributor drive gear removed from engine at any point? Was crankshaft rotated at anytime when distributor was not installed? Have you verified that distributor drive gear is in proper orientation in relation to #1 piston being at TDC?

Start with the basics. Reinstall points distributor with new points/condensor/cap/rotor. Static time distributor with test light to get a baseline set. Arrange plug wires in correct orientation.

Your electric fuel pump needs to be a 1-3psi version.

Check your grounds.

bnc



Yup, I was thinking about re-installing the points just as a possibility. I have verified the distributor gear is in correct orientation with TDC of number 1 piston. It has a new cap, rotor and I checked the spark on number 1 cylinder, and it looked clean and bright, but I didnt check to verify spark on all 4 cylinders afterwards. Crankshaft timing was verified as well to cam timing along with the distributor gear, everything lines up (within a reasonable margin for wear and tear of course) personally I am stumped. New mechanical fuel pump arrived today, and I will be putting it on and checking flow shortly, but I know I am getting good amount of fuel, and air, and I should have proper spark. I am still open for any suggestions even though I do NOT want to put the points system back on cause it just seems like too much work, plus i dont have a dwell meter.
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swavananda
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A word of advise........ These old vw's do require alot of time and money. There is no way around that, So relax and do things properly the first time.Or you will have short frustrated history with them.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There is supposed to be cooling tin under the cylinders. You will have to pull the engine and pull the heads and pushrods to install them. Or you will fry those new pistons shortly. That is going to take a bit of time to redo.
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swhitcomb
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swavananda wrote:
A word of advise........ These old vw's do require alot of time and money. There is no way around that, So relax and do things properly the first time.Or you will have short frustrated history with them.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There is supposed to be cooling tin under the cylinders. You will have to pull the engine and pull the heads and pushrods to install them. Or you will fry those new pistons shortly. That is going to take a bit of time to redo.


Great advise, and advise I often see ignored.

It really shouldn't be that hard to get it to run. Air, fuel, spark, compression. Air is almost always a given, fuel can be easy to test with either some ether or even raw gas. That only leaves spark and compression. My money is on compression. There are 2 TDCs. One for number 3, and one for number one. Are you sure you liked it up at TDC for number one?

Also, the mechanical part and getting it to run is easy. Rust and body work on a Ghia add up. That's what I'd inspect long before I was worried about cobbling an engine together just to verify if it runs or not.
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c21darrel
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points by all.
Quote:
If the distributor is indexed correctly the spark plug wires are not.

This^^
Show a pic with dist cap off so we can see where rotor points, thats #1.
Going clockwise...4,3,2,1. It looks like #1 is going to #4 cyl.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Again, I would go back to basics...POINTS. If your pertronix is bad it'll never start. Static time w/ light.
And put the lower tins on under the cyl heads swavananda pointed out, super fast way to fry your motor. YEs its not relevant to starting the motor, we just dont want you to miss anything important. Nice work resealing the engine Very Happy
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didget69
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go back to stock points/condenser setup to get baseline established...

How to Static time the points setup:
http://www.aircooledtech.com/timing/static/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulQmKU2weyI

bnc
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is how you can trouble shoot the Pertronix unit.

Connect black wire on module to black on volt meter

Connect red wire on module to red wire on volt meter and Positive battery terminal

Connect jumper wire from negative battery terminal to aluminum plate on module

You should see battery voltage on the meter

Use a paper clip to find the 4 magnets in the magnetic collar

Pass magnet by igniter and voltage should drop to 3 volts or less

If voltage does not drop to 3 volts or less or stays a constant 12 volts igniter is bad.

Once you know the Pertronix is good, start from the basics. Set #1 cylinder to TDC, make sure the rotor is pointing at the notch on the distributor. Now set the firing order. Pull the coil wire from the cap and hold it 3mm way from something metal and have someone turn the motor over. You should see a spark jump across. I would put the tins and belt on along with the fuel pump so you can run it with out over heating it. Good Luck!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check that your coil is connected correctly:
15 (+) to ignition switch and automatic choke
1 (-) connected to the distributor (condenser).

Try disconnecting the automatic choke and oil sensors, from your photo it is difficult to see how they are connected, but disconnecting anything you don't need to run will help narrow it- maybe there is a ground somewhere.
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csherrill2
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:01 pm    Post subject: more pics Reply with quote

Okay here we go
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I have Rolled the engine to TDC for cylinder number 1. I took a picture of the rotor button at cylinder number 1. I showed the distributor gear while at TDC and did not move the crankshaft since. I know the above picture of timing shows timing and orders but I still say that this car ran for about 3 seconds before dying and never started back up again. I use this configuration. when I move my plug wires to the above timing it backfires out the intake and exhaust. So I timed it with what I KNOW is top dead center for each cylinder, and I turned the distributor a little to the left and right while my wife tried starting, still nothing. I will verify the car is firing on each cylinder at TDC for each cylinder when it is supposed to fire on that cylinder. I will also remove the wires from the carb and oil sending unit as well as stated above. Does anyone see where I might be messing up? (BESIDES THE COOLING TINS? LOL) On that note, my grandfather is the one who told me to remove that stuff because while he was stationed in Germany for 8 years he used to hang out with people who raced these things and said they took "that junk off and it ran fine". SO since I have more knowledge here, I will put it back on I just want to hear this bastard run first LOL.
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csherrill2
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Engine is:
FLYWHEEL SIDE OF ENGINE
3 1
4 2

Distributor is:
3 2
4 1


I just noticed I made a BIG error. My distributor timing is not what stated as above, it is actually the only one I used to time the car with the cylinder timing as needed.

DISTRIBUTOR IS:
2 1
3 4

I used this timing method in order to get the car started. I could not do anything else since when I used original methods, my car was backfiring out of the exhaust and intake so that let me know something was wrong. but MECHANICALLY I VERIFIED ALL TIMING: Key on crankshaft is 90 degrees left (like _| and it is aligned at TDC for cylinder number 1), the distributor gear is aligned parallel with the crankshaft pulley end of the engine, the camshaft was used as well, when the intake opened and closed and the cylinder came to TDC, (imaginary firing) then cylinder went down and as it came back up, the exhaust valve opened... This car is really stressing me out trying to figure out how to get it to run. Fuel is not the issue, I even have starting fluid. But I will check spark after the kids go to bed Very Happy
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