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hoodain
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Las Cruces, NM
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 Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:17 am Post subject: Can't turn engine by hand |
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I had my engine rebuilt last year and have finally had time to put it in my bus. I'm trying to do the static timing on the engine before starting it for the first time and can't seem to turn the engine over by hand to set the timing. I did not try hand-cranking the engine before mating it to the transmission.
I have done the following:
* Pulled the spark plugs
* Put the bus in neutral and verified this by pushing the bus back and forth in the garage.
* Tightened the alternator belt to specs as it says in the Bentley
* Used a wrench to turn the alternator pulley nut to try to hand crank the engine. No luck, the alternator pulley just spins while the belt stays in the same place.
* Tried moving the crank pulley by hand, no luck
* Tried putting the bus in fourth gear and pushing it forward to crank the engine. Can't move the bus forward or backward. The e-brake is off.
* Connected the battery, put it in neutral, and blipped the starter. There is a click but the engine doesn't turn over.
In case it's relevant, I have touched three case bolts since I got the engine back from the rebuilder:
1) the one on the top that has the fuel injection grounds on it, the engine came back without that ground connector
2) the top case bolt that holds the thermotime switch
3) bolt #70 in this diagram, for reasons detailed in http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7728172:
All three of these bolts were re-tightened to the proper torque spec (14 ft-lbs) before the engine was installed.
Any suggestions? I'm probably forgetting something obvious. Thanks! |
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Vince Waldon
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Joined: November 07, 2010
Posts: 451
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:47 am Post subject: |
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When was the last time you know for sure the crank was able to rotate?
I ask because there's all kinds of things your engine rebuilder could have done that jam up the crank right from the get-go.
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50349
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Who bolted the clutch on? Whoever did should have noticed if the engine had a tendency to turn or not. Even with a flywheel lock the engine is going to need to turn a little for the pall to lock in.
Try loosening the four bolts holding the engine and tranny together and pull the engine back an 1/8 or so. Will it turn now? |
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mikedjames
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012
Posts: 2743
Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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The idea of pulling the engine back a bit and trying to turn it is a good one - it may be your flywheel does not fit in the bellhousing of the gearbox.
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Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.
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hoodain
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Las Cruces, NM
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Vince Waldon wrote: |
When was the last time you know for sure the crank was able to rotate?
I ask because there's all kinds of things your engine rebuilder could have done that jam up the crank right from the get-go. |
I have never seen the crank rotate. It appears to be set at 0 degrees, and I have never seen it move from that since I got it back from the rebuilder. |
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hoodain
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Las Cruces, NM
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
Who bolted the clutch on? Whoever did should have noticed if the engine had a tendency to turn or not. Even with a flywheel lock the engine is going to need to turn a little for the pall to lock in.
Try loosening the four bolts holding the engine and tranny together and pull the engine back an 1/8 or so. Will it turn now? |
I bolted the pressure plate on myself. Now that you mention it, no flywheel lock was needed, which suggests that the engine was seized up at that point, correct?
In case it helps, I have squirted a little engine oil in each of the four spark plugs holes to see if that makes a difference.
I will try your suggestion and post the results in this thread, thank you! |
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hoodain
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Las Cruces, NM
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
Who bolted the clutch on? Whoever did should have noticed if the engine had a tendency to turn or not. Even with a flywheel lock the engine is going to need to turn a little for the pall to lock in.
Try loosening the four bolts holding the engine and tranny together and pull the engine back an 1/8 or so. Will it turn now? |
OK, I just did this. It still won't turn. |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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Better call Adrian if it is the same size motor that came out. If it is a larger flywheel or new trans the bell housing may be binding the flywheel. With the plugs out the engine should turn with a couple fingers. Tell us how you set the timing when you put in the distributor. Also how did you align the distributor to insert it?
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hoodain
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Las Cruces, NM
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Better call Adrian if it is the same size motor that came out. If it is a larger flywheel or new trans the bell housing may be binding the flywheel. With the plugs out the engine should turn with a couple fingers. Tell us how you set the timing when you put in the distributor. Also how did you align the distributor to insert it? |
Long-ish story: I bought a 1978 bus, pulled the tired-out engine including the flywheel, and sent it to Adrian. He called me to let me know that it was a 1.8 rather than a 2.0. I sent him some more money for a core charge and he sent me back a rebuilt 2.0. I am not sure of the flywheel size on the engine that I got back, I (perhaps stupidly) assumed that it was the same flywheel that I sent out.
I definitely have a 6-rib 091 transmission in the bus, but I'm wondering if a 002 bellhousing was installed to match up with the 1.8 motor. Is there any way that I can tell if I have a 002 bellhousing bolted in?
Thia bus has been a nightmare of half-assed hack jobs and missing parts on the part of the PO.
To answer your question about the distributor install... I followed the Bentley. The motor came to me with the engine set at TDC, so I installed the rotor, turned the distributor so that the rotor pointed at the TDC mark on the rim of the distributor, and inserted it into the engine. I installed the bolt loosely with the intention of doing the static timing before trying to start the engine. |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| hoodain wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| Better call Adrian if it is the same size motor that came out. If it is a larger flywheel or new trans the bell housing may be binding the flywheel. With the plugs out the engine should turn with a couple fingers. Tell us how you set the timing when you put in the distributor. Also how did you align the distributor to insert it? |
Long-ish story: I bought a 1978 bus, pulled the tired-out engine including the flywheel, and sent it to Adrian. He called me to let me know that it was a 1.8 rather than a 2.0. I sent him some more money for a core charge and he sent me back a rebuilt 2.0. I am not sure of the flywheel size on the engine that I got back, I (perhaps stupidly) assumed that it was the same flywheel that I sent out.
I definitely have a 6-rib 091 transmission in the bus, but I'm wondering if a 002 bellhousing was installed to match up with the 1.8 motor. Is there any way that I can tell if I have a 002 bellhousing bolted in?
Thia bus has been a nightmare of half-assed hack jobs and missing parts on the part of the PO.
To answer your question about the distributor install... I followed the Bentley. The motor came to me with the engine set at TDC, so I installed the rotor, turned the distributor so that the rotor pointed at the TDC mark on the rim of the distributor, and inserted it into the engine. I installed the bolt loosely with the intention of doing the static timing before trying to start the engine. |
1. Were you able to turn the engine when you inserted the distributor? Do you remember
2. Based on the history it is likely the bellhousing was for a 1.8 since that is what came out. A 2.0 flywheel will rub the side of the earlier bell housing and lock it up.
Engine has to come out anyway so you'll know soon. Whatever the reason - there is a reason this happened; you may not know why for years. Keep your chin up.
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1967250s
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Joined: May 02, 2007
Posts: 2137
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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See if he used the 1.7 flywheel; in a 6 rib, the flywheel will jam against the lower bosses inside the bell house.
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50349
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| 1967250s wrote: |
| See if he used the 1.7 flywheel; in a 6 rib, the flywheel will jam against the lower bosses inside the bell house. |
Huh? |
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hoodain
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Las Cruces, NM
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| SGKent wrote: |
1. Were you able to turn the engine when you inserted the distributor? Do you remember
2. Based on the history it is likely the bellhousing was for a 1.8 since that is what came out. A 2.0 flywheel will rub the side of the earlier bell housing and lock it up.
Engine has to come out anyway so you'll know soon. Whatever the reason - there is a reason this happened; you may not know why for years. Keep your chin up. |
1) The engine hasn't turned at all since I took it out of the crate. I didn't try to turn it, though, until it was mated to the transmission. I was able to bolt up the pressure plate without the flywheel moving at all.
2) I don't know if this is useful, but my bellhousing looks like the one on the left in these pictures:
Thanks for the encouragement, I need it!
EDIT: Also, there is a Bosch 001-211-221 starter installed,as far as I can tell that starter is for the 2.0L. |
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hoodain
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Las Cruces, NM
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| OK, progress. After letting the engine oil that I put it the spark plug holes penetrate for a while I can now turn the engine by hand somewhat, from about 40 degrees BTDC to 40 degrees ATDC. I will pick up some penetrating oil tomorrow to see if I can get it to make some more progress. |
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richparker
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6982
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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So this is a brand new engine built by Head Flow Masters that was shipped to dry ass Mew Mexico? I doubt that the pistons are seized. Pull the engine and measure the fly wheel and or call Adrian. Building a engine is a work of art, don't mess up the art work with penetrating oil until you talk to Adrain.
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16879
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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too much oil and your rings may never seat. why is it you are afraid to pick up the phone after shelling out all this $$$$?
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| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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hoodain
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2008
Posts: 21
Location: Las Cruces, NM
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| richparker wrote: |
| So this is a brand new engine built by Head Flow Masters that was shipped to dry ass Mew Mexico? I doubt that the pistons are seized. Pull the engine and measure the fly wheel and or call Adrian. Building a engine is a work of art, don't mess up the art work with penetrating oil until you talk to Adrain. |
Ok, I will give them a call before doing anything else. Thanks for the advice. |
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1967250s
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Joined: May 02, 2007
Posts: 2137
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| 1967250s wrote: |
| See if he used the 1.7 flywheel; in a 6 rib, the flywheel will jam against the lower bosses inside the bell house. |
I might have gotten this backwards. If so, I apologize.
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16970
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:57 am Post subject: |
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I've had recent dealings with Adrian, not all good. That said, what a nightmare for him. He builds an engine a year or more ago and can't even remember doing it and now after all this time is sorta getting blamed for an engine that's seized.
When he assembled the engine he had to be able to turn it or he wouldn't have been able to adjust the valves. Assembly oil getting hard and doing this doesn't sound likely either but you are now able to rotate so maybe it did cause this.
I'd pull the engine and go from there.
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 10:07 am Post subject: |
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how has this engine been stored and what is the humidity like there? Why would someone even suspect penetrating oil would help it?
One issue that no one has even begun to discuss is that penetrating oil has phosphoric acid in it. That acid converts simple rust to a more stable form of iron oxide. That more stable form of iron oxide is very hard. I just don't know how well that engine is going to break in.
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