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smp88
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2015
Posts: 25
Location: Portland, OR
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 Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:51 pm Post subject: '73 Type 4 Died While Driving - Won't Start |
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Hi All,
After not owning a car for ~8 years, we were gifted a beautiful '74 Type 4 with 57K miles on it, but we've gotten off on the wrong foot..
The day I got the car back from the shop (resealed intake manifolds) we put about 15 miles on it. While driving near our home the engine just cut out and won't start back up! The only noise I heard was a click when it died, but that's it.
I've seen some posts regarding possible electrical corrosion, but I really don't know where to start. Any ideas before we bring it back to our mechanic?
Thanks! |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Ah....wagon or sedan?.....if it was a sedan the click came from somewhere down around your knees or mid-section right?.....if its a wagon it came from low somewhere in the back right?
This was your fuel pump relay losing power or if its a wagon......it was your fuel injection system main relay under the right rear armrest losing power or the main fuel pump relay.
Raise the drivers seat via the latch under the forward left side. Lean the swat back and look at your battery. It has the normal +/-....and on + terminal there is a medium sized red wire that should be crimped in with the main heavy red wire.....and there is a heavy gauge red and white wire connected with a female connector.
Clean the terminals and tighten the female red/white wire with a pair of pliers. Its common that when that wire is loose you can lose power to the fuel pump relay. If the main positive terminal is loose....you can loose power to the fuel injection main relay.
Check the bolt on the ground braid and its cleanliness. Also look at both the fuel pump relay...under the dash by your right knee in the pedal cluster. Make sure the brown ground wire is under the screw on clean metal and the screw is tight.
Same check for the fuel injection relay......first relay on the left inside the engine compartment of two and four door sedans....and on top of the ECU under the passenger side back seat armrest on the wagons.
A piece of advice. There is no such thing as a type 4 with 57,000 miles. By that I mean....the miles are irrelevant. The age is critical. Its 41 years old and is not a reliable car until you knowingly make it that way......and there is not a VW shop in the US that I know of that is qualified to make it that way for you simply because no one has any practice.
......35 years ago dealer know-how counts for nothing in this case because there was no dealer on the planet 35 years ago that worked on 41 year old type 4 cars.
Its a different world....and age is far worse than mileage with these vehicles. Stop and post what you got and at the very least....go through the front suspension, brakes and fuel lines before you drive it anywhere.....or you will be sorry.
For reference. ..my first car in 1978 was a 1972 VW 411 four door. It had 55,000 original miles and was only 6 years old......but had been parked for about 2 years with very limited driving. It was pristine......and it took 4 months of work to make all of the systems operate....and about 6 months total to make it a reliable driver that dix not stop running for a myriad of reasons caused by disuse. Ray |
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smp88
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Joined: July 03, 2015
Posts: 25
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Wow, thanks for this quick and detailed response. This makes perfect sense!
It's a wagon and I heard the noise coming from the back - spot on. I'll post pictures when I get the car home.
I hear you on the age vs. mileage. When you say "go through the front suspension, brakes and fuel lines before you drive it anywhere." Do you have any guides I could follow to do this myself?
Thanks again, I'll let you know how it went here in a bit  |
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smp88
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Joined: July 03, 2015
Posts: 25
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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No luck.
I reviewed the cables on the battery/relay and all looks good. In fact, if i turn the key and press the relay you are able to hear the clicking sound in another part of the car. So this is probably working as intended.
Maybe the fuel pump is going? |
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Lars S
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Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 785
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| smp88 wrote: |
Maybe the fuel pump is going? |
Each time you put the ignition on you should hear the click and also each time you hear the fuelpump running for about a second or two.
There is a fuse (#7 or 9?) in the fuse box for the fuel pump.
/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold 
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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smp88
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2015
Posts: 25
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Lars S wrote: |
| smp88 wrote: |
Maybe the fuel pump is going? |
Each time you put the ignition on you should hear the click and also each time you hear the fuelpump running for about a second or two.
There is a fuse (#7 or 9?) in the fuse box for the fuel pump.
/Lars S |
I only hear a click when I engage the "push-down" prior to turning the key in a failed attempt to start. Fairly certain that the manual recommends this from a cold-start.
Below is the red-white wire that was crimped into the battery bolt. I couldn't really tighten the red-white wire as it was part of the thing that attaches to the battery.
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smp88
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2015
Posts: 25
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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Spent some more time looking for issues with the electrical. The fuel pump didn't sound like it was running when the ignition was on - but maybe it's just super quiet?
According to the repair manual, the relays should be in the top left of the engine compartment. I wanted to check the voltage, but couldn't find the relays it is referring to. I've attached some pictures of the engine compartment.. is that them on the bottom right?
Sorry.. total newb trying to learn this car and get it working without a mechanic.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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As I noted.....only on the sedans are the FI relays located in the engine compartment...meaning two door sedan and four door sedan.....not station wagon.
In the station wagon....your EFI main power relay is bolted to the fuel injection ECU and is behind/under the passenger side, back seat armrest. Your fuel pump relay is under the dash.....bolted to the right hand side of the gas pedal support cluster. Ray |
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smp88
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2015
Posts: 25
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
As I noted.....only on the sedans are the FI relays located in the engine compartment...meaning two door sedan and four door sedan.....not station wagon.
In the station wagon....your EFI main power relay is bolted to the fuel injection ECU and is behind/under the passenger side, back seat armrest. Your fuel pump relay is under the dash.....bolted to the right hand side of the gas pedal support cluster. Ray |
Thanks ray, I now realize what you were saying there, sorry. I had a brainfart when the repair manual didn't actually discern between the sedan / wagon. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| smp88 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
As I noted.....only on the sedans are the FI relays located in the engine compartment...meaning two door sedan and four door sedan.....not station wagon.
In the station wagon....your EFI main power relay is bolted to the fuel injection ECU and is behind/under the passenger side, back seat armrest. Your fuel pump relay is under the dash.....bolted to the right hand side of the gas pedal support cluster. Ray |
Thanks ray, I now realize what you were saying there, sorry. I had a brainfart when the repair manual didn't actually discern between the sedan / wagon. |
What repair manual are you using? |
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smp88
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2015
Posts: 25
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| smp88 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
As I noted.....only on the sedans are the FI relays located in the engine compartment...meaning two door sedan and four door sedan.....not station wagon.
In the station wagon....your EFI main power relay is bolted to the fuel injection ECU and is behind/under the passenger side, back seat armrest. Your fuel pump relay is under the dash.....bolted to the right hand side of the gas pedal support cluster. Ray |
Thanks ray, I now realize what you were saying there, sorry. I had a brainfart when the repair manual didn't actually discern between the sedan / wagon. |
What repair manual are you using? |
Clymer 411 & 412 1968 - 1974 Shop Manual
It actually calls out sedan vs. wagon in certain places in the book, which is why I got confused. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21518
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| smp88 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| smp88 wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
As I noted.....only on the sedans are the FI relays located in the engine compartment...meaning two door sedan and four door sedan.....not station wagon.
In the station wagon....your EFI main power relay is bolted to the fuel injection ECU and is behind/under the passenger side, back seat armrest. Your fuel pump relay is under the dash.....bolted to the right hand side of the gas pedal support cluster. Ray |
Thanks ray, I now realize what you were saying there, sorry. I had a brainfart when the repair manual didn't actually discern between the sedan / wagon. |
What repair manual are you using? |
Clymer 411 & 412 1968 - 1974 Shop Manual
It actually calls out sedan vs. wagon in certain places in the book, which is why I got confused. |
The Clymer manual has some useful information in spots. ....but is overall......kind of poor. Get the Haynes green manual on Amazon or ebay. The Chiltons manual is the worst but also has a few p8eces of useful info. Ray |
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smp88
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2015
Posts: 25
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
The Clymer manual has some useful information in spots. ....but is overall......kind of poor. Get the Haynes green manual on Amazon or ebay. The Chiltons manual is the worst but also has a few p8eces of useful info. Ray |
Thanks for the tip. I just picked it up on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1850104522?psc=1&...ge_o00_s00
In the meantime, I am probably towing her back to my mechanic at Trafton's Auto in Portland, OR. |
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kirk knighton
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Joined: January 23, 2005
Posts: 282
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Hey, I'm close to you up here in Seattle! I have three of these cars, and I have owned five altogether. The first one I bought was a 1971 411 wagon right there in Portland in 1984.
So I've had some 31 years of experiences like yours.
When my 411 wagon suddenly died on the highway ( I-84 coming west down that long curvy pass near LaGrande ) I coasted to a stop. Finally figured the fuel pump wasn't running, and it was the fuse! Aha! Simple! So a new fuse went in, I turned the key and - bam! - fuse popped again.
So, right there on the BUSY shoulder of I-84 I crawled under the front of the car and saw that the plastic coating around the wires hooked up to the fuel pump had cracked apart, exposing the bare wires against each other and thus the short.
A quick wrap of electrical tape ( and yes, I always carry LOTS of fix-it things in my Type-4s on trips ), another new fuse, and voila! Fuel pump back up and running.
Hopefully your problem is this simple - let me know! |
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Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 785
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| smp88 wrote: |
| Spent some more time looking for issues with the electrical. The fuel pump didn't sound like it was running when the ignition was on - but maybe it's just super quiet? |
No, you will certanly hear it if it works but it only runs 1-2 sec each time the key is set from off to ignition on. The pump is located under the fuel tank.
Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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smp88
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2015
Posts: 25
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| kirk knighton wrote: |
Hey, I'm close to you up here in Seattle! I have three of these cars, and I have owned five altogether. The first one I bought was a 1971 411 wagon right there in Portland in 1984.
So I've had some 31 years of experiences like yours. |
Very cool! Glad to know there's someone nearby who has experience  This is literally my first car in ~8 years and the first car I've had to actually work on myself. As someone who doesn't even have a way to lift the thing, it's a bit daunting to say the least!
| kirk knighton wrote: |
When my 411 wagon suddenly died on the highway ( I-84 coming west down that long curvy pass near LaGrande ) I coasted to a stop. Finally figured the fuel pump wasn't running, and it was the fuse! Aha! Simple! So a new fuse went in, I turned the key and - bam! - fuse popped again.
So, right there on the BUSY shoulder of I-84 I crawled under the front of the car and saw that the plastic coating around the wires hooked up to the fuel pump had cracked apart, exposing the bare wires against each other and thus the short.
A quick wrap of electrical tape ( and yes, I always carry LOTS of fix-it things in my Type-4s on trips ), another new fuse, and voila! Fuel pump back up and running.
Hopefully your problem is this simple - let me know! |
The fuse seems OK, but I did try to spot the fuel pump myself today to check for a short or bad wiring. Is it behind the front-wheel well a bit behind the gas tank? I was having trouble spotting it and, to be completely honest, fitting under the front of the car was a bit of a challenge  |
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kirk knighton
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Joined: January 23, 2005
Posts: 282
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| yes, with the d-tronic FI system the fuel pump will run for about a second when you turn the key to "on", before you turn it all the way to engage the starter. If it's not doing that your fuel pump is not getting power. Double check the fuse, check the wires connecting to the pump, then we'll go from there. |
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Lars S
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Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 785
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:20 am Post subject: |
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Regarding the wires at the battery, you should have a red/black one at a spade connector on top of the positive clamp. If this wire is not connected the fuel pump relay will not activate and the fuel pump wont run.
/Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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smp88
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2015
Posts: 25
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Lars S wrote: |
Regarding the wires at the battery, you should have a red/black one at a spade connector on top of the positive clamp. If this wire is not connected the fuel pump relay will not activate and the fuel pump wont run.
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I have both the red/black and red/white connected and cleaned on the terminal. I need to get the car home so I can actually get under the thing and check the fuel pump terminals and relay voltages. |
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Mike Fisher
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Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17970
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:20 am Post subject: |
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I carry an old Subaru Legacy jack in the trunk, but also have a Harbor Freight floor jack at home. Get 2 or 4 3Ton jack stands while you're at Harbor Freight too.
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