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prevent rust on cylinders
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andybla
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:29 pm    Post subject: prevent rust on cylinders Reply with quote

Hello,

At the moment i am removing my tinwork on my type 3 engine, what i saw was that the cylinders were a bit rusty.

Is it possible to treat them with something that will prevent rusting of the fins?
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fivelugshortaxle
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

High temp, rust preventative paint. But why? They're iron. They will rust. But not to the point where it causes a problem unless hou tink hou cqn get the cylinders to last 75 years.
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ps2375
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drive it more.
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Howard 111
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't worry about it. If VW thought it made any difference in how it runs and cools, they would have done something at the factory to treat them.
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Boolean
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Delivering bugs with 150 hp engines, they would have done aluminium finned cylinders.
Just because VW didn't do anything about it doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good thing doing.
But with that said, rusty cylinders is not what will keep your engine from making 100, 000 miles.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If u must, water based rust converter followed with high temp paint after dried. I use Quorox.
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LivinInnaVWBus
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ps2375 wrote:
Drive it more.


They rust no matter how much you drive.

Just get the cheapest can of matte black or grill spray paint you can find. Cylinders don't get that hot, it doesn't burn off.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

remove them and replace...... there disposable. Shocked or remove clean/blast outer rust off then clean&paint, reinstall to find out there wore out and smoke and have blow by.
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ps2375
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LivinInnaVWBus wrote:
ps2375 wrote:
Drive it more.


They rust no matter how much you drive.



But, if you are driving it, you're not working on it.
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andybla
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hello guys, thanks for the answers

but i do not understand
Code:
reinstall to find out there wore out and smoke and have blow by.
Embarassed

So prob. will clean them with water based rust converter or hardwire brush and spray paint them with a very thin layer of heat resistent paint Cool
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LivinInnaVWBus
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andybla wrote:
hello guys, thanks for the answers

but i do not understand
Code:
reinstall to find out there wore out and smoke and have blow by.
Embarassed

So prob. will clean them with water based rust converter or hardwire brush and spray paint them with a very thin layer of heat resistent paint Cool


Realistically, unless you are already pulling the heads, cylinders and pistons off - painting them is a moot point because after all, you're just going to cover them back up with your tins anyways. Painting the cylinders with the long block assembled is not a good idea and it will net you zero results other than aesthetics which are covered once the engine is running.

If you are pulling at least the top end apart and you've decided it isn't cost effective to replace the pistons and jugs($125 or so plus $25 for balancing), it is very wise to at the very least recondition them - some might say you'd be foolish if you didn't - others wouldn't risk running reconditioned P&Cs at all. I only use reconditioned pistons and cylinders if the rest of the engine is in similar or worse shape. If the inside of the cylinders aren't glazed over and you still have crosshatching left, you might be able to get away with just a new set of rings and be done with it.
To recondition the cylinders, I media blast the exterior, two light coats of matte black paint(high temp, grill or the cheapest can you can find) and hone them - any machine shop can hone for you.
The pistons, I clean the tops with a wire wheel and run a broken piston ring through the grooves to remove all of the crud then add a set of new (properly gapped) piston rings after you've cleaned the pistons thoroughly.

All things considered, you don't 'need' to paint you cylinders. A few have claimed a light coat of matte black will help the cylinders cool but I doubt it makes a noticeable difference. They were cooling just fine the decades prior before anyone considered painting them.
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andybla
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again everyone thanks for the reactions!

Speaking of the heads, i have searched but not found, are they made of aluminium? Because they not seem to rust at all, only a bit of white "glaze" on the fins

Yes, guess i am considering doing this just for aesthetic purposes.. this is an engine that hasn't run for a couple of years. It has only warmed up a couple of times stationary to make sure it was still lubricated once in a while... so the engine itself is running smoothly, stationary... so yes think i will pull the heads and replace every internal part and indeed replacing the cylinders is not cost effective at this moment but i will check the walls' glaze and crosshatching to see if reconditioning is needed or only the rings should be replaced.

Thanks for explaining how to recondition them; The only question/remark i have is if honing doesn't create leakage because of the piston that is allready "worn" inside of the cylinder? Or is that just bs*?

This is how the engine is at the moment, waiting to drain out the oil before continuing disassembly...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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LivinInnaVWBus
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The heads are aluminum.
If you're pulling it down to the shortblock and doing work on the cylinders/pistons, it would be a really good idea to rebuild your heads. Worn guides, springs and valves can easily cause engine failure, likely before your pistons or cylinders have the chance.
I'm not sure if you're wanting to split the case, if you do, at least replace all of your bearings and oil pump. If you do not want to split the case, replace your rod bearings and oil pump, you can do it with the case assembled.
Honing your cylinders can cause issues, this is why some don't bother with it. It's up to you to weigh the savings, work and potential consequence vs. the cost of new parts. A good place to start is taking measurements and comparing them to wear tolerances so you can see how much meat is left in the cylinders. If you don't have them already, buy the John Muir book How to Keep Your Volkswagen Alive and a Bentley repair guide.
Also, don't buy or add oil until you've educated yourself on how damaging some oils can be...
Oil weight.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=467803&start=0
Oil type.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=220755

I use Brad Penn racing oil between 0w30 and 10w30.

I am currently in the middle of a bastard rebuild/freshen up, likely similar to what you're looking to do. You can follow it at the link in my signature... but please take note, I do not plan for or expect that engine to run forever - it will be replaced with a properly rebuilt engine very soon.
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LivinInnaVWBus
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way, if the engine is running fine and has no oil leaks, I personally would not bother with taking it apart.
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andybla
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok,

Because the engine is running smoothly stationary, i will not split the case for now. But who knows maybe in the future if i really get in trouble...My main purpose at the moment is purely aesthetic.

...so basically the plan at the moment is
1. replace the oil pump
2. take off the heads, inspect wear and replace where required
3. replace the pushrod tubes with stainless steel ones, inspect pushrods and replace if required
4. Inspect glaze + crosshatching on cylinders, hone if required with new piston rings OR just let them be
5. i think it is very difficult to replace rod bearings without splitting the case or am i wrong? So this step is doubtful + also not possible when letting cylinders mounted in previous step
6. clean and paint cylinders with very thin layer
7. assemble everything, question: is it necessary to balance or align when assembling or is it just like putting it all together with no further work? I know that new pistons need balancing, but what in my case?

thx Dancing
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LivinInnaVWBus
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. replace the oil pump - Schadek brand, 21mm is perfectly good but if you want larger, 26mm tops.

3. replace the pushrod tubes with stainless steel ones, inspect pushrods and replace if required - The stainless tubes still rust, cover them with a coat of silver paint so you can see leaks if they appear. Get the windage type while you're at it.

5. i think it is very difficult to replace rod bearings without splitting the case or am i wrong? So this step is doubtful + also not possible when letting cylinders mounted in previous step - Not difficult at all, the engine case holds the crank/rods for you, you just need to squeeze yours fingers in the cylinder bores.

7. assemble everything, question: is it necessary to balance or align when assembling or is it just like putting it all together with no further work? I know that new pistons need balancing, but what in my case? - No balancing necessary with the used parts. Make sure you mark and put the same piston back in the same cylinder, the same wrist pin back in the same piston and the same cylinder/piston in the same case bore. New wrist pin clips are a good idea and make sure you shove rags in the case bores as you're installing the clips, they have a tendency to spring out of pliars and into the case bores forcing you to open up the case. Replace your main seal while you're at it and don't loose the flywheel shims.
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mikedjames
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found that a light spray of oil from a leaking oil cooler stops them rusting Very Happy
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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if everything is fine than leave it alone!!!! as for honing ...that depends on who does it. if pulling the heads everything in there replaced with quality parts isant real cheep, but isant expensive either.I would replace valves with stainless steel. I in reality see no issue with the cylinders as they are. I dont know if mine are rusted or not and it realy dosent matter if there is some rust on mine.
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