Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
BA4 Heater out of Hibernation
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Forum Index -> 411/412 Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ClassicCamper
Samba Member


Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679

ClassicCamper is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:36 pm    Post subject: BA4 Heater out of Hibernation Reply with quote

I finally untangled the rats nest heater mess left by a PO and fixed up the BA4 gas heater. Everything works fine (no gas though, engine is out). However, the fuel pump will not tick. I have 12 Volts to the pump on the green wire. If I leave that wire on the pump, and I ground the other terminal on the pump, I'll get the 'tick'.

Note: The BA4 Troubleshooting guide says to measure out voltage of two wires coming into pump while running. It says voltmeter should swing between 3-5 volts which it does

Any help would be really appreciated. Thanks, -Ron


Last edited by ClassicCamper on Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Kharon8
Samba Member


Joined: March 05, 2011
Posts: 375
Location: Espoo, Finland
Kharon8 is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Any" help is what you get.

The swing means it's pulse-width modulated signal (slow pulses shows as variable voltage(=swinging needle) on analog voltage meter) and you'd really need an oscilloscope or graphing digital multimeter to see what is actually going on.

According to the schematic you should have a green wire with pulsed 12V from blower fan and sw/ro (don't know what that is) wire from pump to relay and you seem to miss this wire.
_________________
Kharon -- '62 typ1, '63 typ14, '61 typ21, '65 typ34, '74 412, '75 typ26
FVWA.fi support group.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21474
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok.....so if you connect and remove the green wire while its powered up...you get a single tick...right?

This (in its simplest form) means that either the main blower motor is not working....the one mounted to the side of the combustion chamber......or the triggering points for the fuel pump inside of the blower motor are dirty, burned, frozen up or need to be gapped.

So...you will need to remove the clamp that holds the blower into the housing. Remove the small circular plug and wires from it.
There is a rubber boot cover on the outer end. Carefully remove it. Underneath it is a steel cap with two small screws. Remove that cover and you will see a gear drive mounted to the shaft, a pair of points and the inductor.
At the other end of the motor is an aluminum cover ....usually stuck to the housing with age on an o-ring. Carefully pry it off and you will see the turbine.
Before removing anything from the blower assembly once you get it out and the covers off.......measure the gap between the turbine and housing. Write that down.

Look around the turbine and you will see a small set screw. Remove it and the turbine pulls off.
Underneath the turbine is another cover area with an identical set of trigger points underneath.

One trigger set fires the fuel pump...the other fires the coil and glowplug. Both need to be clean, well connected and gapped at .016".
Get a new o-ring for the outer nose cover...and I use 600F+ silicone like Permatex ultra copper to hold the turnbine cover in.

Also make sure that the multi pin plug iw making proper connection. Check all the grounds. Start here and let us know what you find. Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ClassicCamper
Samba Member


Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679

ClassicCamper is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your reply.

Quote:
Ok.....so if you connect and remove the green wire while its powered up...you get a single tick...right?


Not exactly; if i leave the green wire on the pump that has constant 12 volts, and then ground the other spade terminal of pump, Ill get a tick. This is when system is on. (both fans running)

Im going out now to attempt this removing and checking combustion motor. Rewiring this and finding missing parts was a heck of a project. So far, I have 11 hours into this Eberspächer. Dies macht mich verrückt!

Ill keep you posted. Thanks
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21474
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
Thanks for your reply.

Quote:
Ok.....so if you connect and remove the green wire while its powered up...you get a single tick...right?


Not exactly; if i leave the green wire on the pump that has constant 12 volts, and then ground the other spade terminal of pump, Ill get a tick. This is when system is on. (both fans running)

Im going out now to attempt this removing and checking combustion motor. Rewiring this and finding missing parts was a heck of a project. So far, I have 11 hours into this Eberspächer. Dies macht mich verrückt!

Ill keep you posted. Thanks


Ok...same thing. Anytime you break and connect the power circuit...either ground or +...the pump will make a single tick. The pump does not run constant when hooked to power. It is a metering pump.

This is why it has a trigger point set to make and break the ground at a specific rpm. Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ClassicCamper
Samba Member


Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679

ClassicCamper is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gotchya, thanks for clarification. I have been under and back up from the car at least 200 times trying to get this heater working. (Well, in theory). No engine in car yet, no fuel in tank.

If the components I can test are working, Ill be happy. Had to temporarily rig up (and ground) the alternator and starter to get heat system running.

Back into garage. Would love to post video of this baby running. Stay tuned...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ClassicCamper
Samba Member


Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679

ClassicCamper is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, So here is where I'm at. The top of the combustion blower is pitted very bad. I'll clean up:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Now on the bottom (under the turbine) I see no other way to get to the other cover....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Suggestions??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ClassicCamper
Samba Member


Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679

ClassicCamper is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Success!! Found the issue. Just like you said, under the impeller was the cap. I unscrewed it and points were dirty. Cleaned them up, added a tiny bit of grease to worm gear as it was dried up.

Tick, tick tick..... All fans running. I'll have to wait for fuel hook up to make sure it fires up.

My main concern was making sure combustion motor was sound as it's going to be a PITA to access once trans is back in. Thanks everyone!


Note: I had a lot of trouble putting combustion fan back in housing. The fan was scraping. Make sure the spring clip is 100% holding the combustion motor ring. Also, impeller should be 1mm from housing. Hope this helps someone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21474
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes...its tricky getting the blower in and clamp on. You need to make sure the o-ring is intact.

Also once its started....it will not run for very long without fuel. It has a timing circuit. If the flame probe does not sense combustion heat within a certain amount of time....fuel pump and glow plug cease to operate and only tue main blower runs intil it times out. Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ClassicCamper
Samba Member


Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679

ClassicCamper is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Made some more progress tonight on the heater. Found an NOS exhaust pipe (thanks Dave). Couldn't find any clear diagrams as to how this bolts up. Here is my guess:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I clamped it to the heater like this: (pipe slipped into female end of heater)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Put the phallic-looking tip on like this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Some quick questions:

1) Where does the hanger connect to the body of the car?

2) Is the tip oriented correctly? I recall reading that the heater can't have a backflow of air going up pipe as you cruise down the highway.

Thanks in advance. This 412 project is a good time. Its a real challenge trying to find parts and fabricating the unobtanium.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21474
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See that vertical 6mm stud to the right of the bracket?.....it connects right there with a,6mm wing nut. Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ClassicCamper
Samba Member


Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679

ClassicCamper is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Ray, I'll nut it up there. How about the tip..oriented properly? I'm thinking I'll put a small sheet metal screw through both pipes so tip doesn't fall off.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21474
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you look around on the tip cover there should be a screw hole for a small phillips screw....maybe 3mm. Yes the cover opening should face downward. Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ClassicCamper
Samba Member


Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679

ClassicCamper is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:05 pm    Post subject: Re: BA4 Heater out of Hibernation Reply with quote

Enjoying my BA4 heater these days, although we are having a record warm winter in the Northeast. Seventy-five degrees predicted for Christmas Eve!

On to my issue. The fuse that runs the fuel metering pump under the rear seat will randomly blow for some unknown reason. This only occurs when the engine is running (vs warming up car prior to a trip). This doesn't happen at any specific temperature or after any length of time; again, its just randomly.

To the best of my knowledge, I've run through most of the diagnostics in the troubleshooting guide and cannot seem to point out or identify the cause. Any suggestions? Thanks, -Ron
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21474
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:17 am    Post subject: Re: BA4 Heater out of Hibernation Reply with quote

ClassicCamper wrote:
Enjoying my BA4 heater these days, although we are having a record warm winter in the Northeast. Seventy-five degrees predicted for Christmas Eve!

On to my issue. The fuse that runs the fuel metering pump under the rear seat will randomly blow for some unknown reason. This only occurs when the engine is running (vs warming up car prior to a trip). This doesn't happen at any specific temperature or after any length of time; again, its just randomly.

To the best of my knowledge, I've run through most of the diagnostics in the troubleshooting guide and cannot seem to point out or identify the cause. Any suggestions? Thanks, -Ron


Is this the inline fuse?.....what is it connected to?.....how many amps is it? I will have to look in the book but there should be two inline fuses. One of these is the high limited fuse...olive green heavy wire....shoulf have a 25 amp fuse....I "think".....cant tell you until i get home.

This would be the high limit switch fuse and either means you are running too hot....way to little or way too much fuel.....or more usually.....one of the crimped ears on the high limit switch is making contact with the heater body causing a short and blowing the fuse. Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ClassicCamper
Samba Member


Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679

ClassicCamper is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:35 pm    Post subject: Re: BA4 Heater out of Hibernation Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:

Is this the inline fuse?.....what is it connected to?.....how many amps is it? I will have to look in the book but there should be two inline fuses. One of these is the high limited fuse...olive green heavy wire....shoulf have a 25 amp fuse....I "think".....cant tell you until i get home.

This would be the high limit switch fuse and either means you are running too hot....way to little or way too much fuel.....or more usually.....one of the crimped ears on the high limit switch is making contact with the heater body causing a short and blowing the fuse. Ray


Yes, this is one of the inline fuses. The book refers to it as the 'overheating fuse'. It says that it should be 8 amp. The only insight gleaned from the manual is the following:

1) If fuse blows immediately, the overheating switch is defective and must be replaced. In my situation, this does not happen.

2) Guide also says to check blow-back flaps. All of mine are in order and move freely.

Totally stumped.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ClassicCamper
Samba Member


Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679

ClassicCamper is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: BA4 Heater out of Hibernation Reply with quote

Well, I'm back. Very Happy Aside from still being stumped why the overheat fuse intermittently blows, I have another issue that I could use some help with. The heater will only run in 'timer mode'. In other words, with engine running, the heater will not activate unless the switch is depressed and turned counterclockwise and timer is running. When time runs out, heat is off. In addition, the switch does not illuminate.

So, to sum up, here are my BA4 issues:

1) Overheat fuse blows intermittently, but generally seems to be Ok if I leave temp switch 1/2 way between hottest and coolest setting.

2) Heater will only run in timer mode including when engine is running. All fuses are fine, including #9 in fuse box.

3) Switch will not illuminate with lights on or while running. (bulb maybe?)

Otherwise, this heater is incredible. It runs beautifully, and keeps the car toasty warm. I'm yet to take a trip beyond 30 mins, however, I was so warm when it was 10 degrees out!

Looking forward to any feedback
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21474
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:29 pm    Post subject: Re: BA4 Heater out of Hibernation Reply with quote

Did you check your cuel output volume from tje pump? It sounds like you are gettin too much fuel.

Also make sure that the crimped connections on the overheat switch thermocouple are not bent over and contaction metal. You need to pull the rubber cover back from the switch in th3 top of the heater to check this.

Also.....make sure the auxiliary blower in the engine compartment is running and all hoses are hooked up with no leaks. If the unit is not getting all the airflow it can overheat.

Trace every wire in the system. Make sure nothing is loose at the switch. Also make sure the system ground at the left heater lever works. When that lever is anywhere except fully vertical and making connection....the auxiliary blower will not work....and the system should not turn on.....but with some switches it might with the timer. I need to look at my notes. I have had this issue at one tjme. Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
ClassicCamper
Samba Member


Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679

ClassicCamper is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: BA4 Heater out of Hibernation Reply with quote

The aux blower is totally sealed and checked the non return flap, functions well. Ill check the overheat switch as well as the fuel output; Ill have to poke around the forums to see how to measure output.

Traced wiring, all seems in order. If you have a more clear wiring digram than I, it would be a big help. Im trying to find out what is keeping system from running when engine is running and the timer is off.

I thought it would be terminal 30 from the heater switch which runs into fuse box to fuse 9. However, I dont see any faults there. If I remove that fuse, heat system works in timer mode. Nothing else.
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21474
Location: Oklahoma City
raygreenwood is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:48 pm    Post subject: Re: BA4 Heater out of Hibernation Reply with quote

Timer mode "should" be the only way the system runs when the car is turned off. It bypasses switched power. This is why it has a timer so that you will not run the battery down.

If ot still only operates in timer mode when the car is running......you are missing a switched power inpit somehwre.
Thiw can be at the switch or at the relays in the back. Ray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> 411/412 All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.