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mfemenel
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2014
Posts: 273
Location: Matthews, NC
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 Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:55 am Post subject: Gas choices |
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| Just got our 79 FI Westy back the other day. What are opinions on what octane fuel to run? THe owners manual suggests the highest rating possible so I would think I should go with 91 or 93. Also any thoughts on avoiding ethanol mixed in? There are a handful of stations in Charlotte that have no ethanol fuel available. |
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gintaras
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2012
Posts: 523
Location: Louisville
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:00 am Post subject: |
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Not a definitive answer, just a personal opinion/preference, but I run 89 in mine, my own personal thoughts on that is it should run a little cooler than 87.
I was thinking about running 93 and advancing the timing, but for stock I'll stick with 89.
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1979 Deluxe Westy in Mexico Beige |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:43 am Post subject: |
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The owners manual recommends 91 RON, which is equivalent to the 87 R+M/2 octane that we use in the United States. Any stock Volkswagen will run fine on 87 in the US, but if your engine has been tampered with to utilize a higher compression ratio, you might get pinging unless you use a higher octane gas. Octane rating measures resistance to pre-ignition (pinging) and that's it. It's not a measurement of quality.
Since ethanol blend is so wildly available everywhere, I tune my engine for it and don't worry about what goes in my tank.
Robbie
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16883
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
Octane rating measures resistance to pre-ignition (pinging) and that's it. It's not a measurement of quality.
Robbie |
finally, someone that gets it.
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
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| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
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gintaras
Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2012
Posts: 523
Location: Louisville
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
Octane rating measures resistance to pre-ignition (pinging) and that's it. It's not a measurement of quality.
Robbie |
finally, someone that gets it. |
I get it, and is why I choose to run a higher octane because I believe that it runs cooler due to the reduced volatility in the ignition. But not too high, because without increasing the timing, you are losing power.
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1979 Deluxe Westy in Mexico Beige |
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Kirk
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2003
Posts: 5487
Location: North Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:37 am Post subject: |
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I run 93 octane and always have. Bus runs way worse on the cheap stuff. When I find 100% gas stations I buy whatever octane they offer, and the bus LOVES that stuff.
Maybe its me, dunno.
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| gintaras wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
Octane rating measures resistance to pre-ignition (pinging) and that's it. It's not a measurement of quality.
Robbie |
finally, someone that gets it. |
I get it, and is why I choose to run a higher octane because I believe that it runs cooler due to the reduced volatility in the ignition. But not too high, because without increasing the timing, you are losing power. |
I built my engine with a low-ish compression ratio so when I visit Baja or drive through the boonies, I can enjoy the road trip on whatever "gas" they sell out of plastic water jugs and feed troughs. Plus, it's cheap!
| amskeptic wrote: |
| I DEMAND TO HAVE A TRUE VOLKSWAGEN that runs on horsepiss and kerosene all day floored and happy. |
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LivinInnaVWBus
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2013
Posts: 968
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| I always run the highest grade I can get which typically sits between 91 and 93 octane. No issues with pinging no matter the load I'm carrying and it keeps the combustion chamber a lot cleaner. The carbon build up with low grade gas is horrendous. |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| LivinInnaVWBus wrote: |
| No issues with pinging no matter the load I'm carrying and it keeps the combustion chamber a lot cleaner. The carbon build up with low grade gas is horrendous. |
How does this work? A hotter mixture burns carbon deposits away. Remember that octane rating is NOT a quality rating.
You're saying that because a fuel is more inclined to ping, that it builds up more carbon? On the other side of the isle, we have gintaras saying higher octane gas runs cooler, which by the laws of physics should result in MORE carbon build up.
Robbie
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LivinInnaVWBus
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2013
Posts: 968
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| LivinInnaVWBus wrote: |
| No issues with pinging no matter the load I'm carrying and it keeps the combustion chamber a lot cleaner. The carbon build up with low grade gas is horrendous. |
How does this work? A hotter mixture burns carbon deposits away. Remember that octane rating is NOT a quality rating.
You're saying that because a fuel is more inclined to ping, that it builds up more carbon? On the other side of the isle, we have gintaras saying higher octane gas runs cooler, which by the laws of physics should result in MORE carbon build up.
Robbie |
Nope, two unrelated reasons why I use premium.
BP and Shell use higher amounts of detergents in their premium grade.
I comment about the build up because I tear down and build my own engines, not because I've read or heard it somewhere.
IMO, octane ratings play no role in cooling abilities, though word around the campfire seems different. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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I have almost always run the lowest octane available in my bus, that is until I started having hot start problems with gasohol during hot weather. Still run the low octane stuff when the weather is cool but the alcohol free gas when it is hot. Never seen the slightest hint of extra carbon build up from the low octane gas, never heard the slightest ping from my bus engines either.
I have heard this "gotta run high octane argument" for decades at this point, from way back in the days of heavily leaded fuel. There were always those that ran high octane when it wasn't needed and all too often had greatly shortened engine life because of it. In the old days at least the low octane swill actually had a bit more BTU's, but mainly it took a lot longer for the damaging lead sludge to build up in the rocker boxes, oil galleys, and oil pan. I went to Gulftane low lead-extra low octane fuel as soon as it was available and never looked back. I don't know that today's higher octane fuels give any engine problems like their predecessors, but unless the higher octane is needed there just isn't a lot of reason to run it, alcohol free fuel being the exception when needed. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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As noted from the original post.....this was a two forked question:
1. About what octane to use
2. About our thoughts on ethanol
Two very different items. As Skills noted....and I fully realize. ....octane rating has nothing to do with fuel quality......unless a fuel of a rated octane is so poor in quality that it does not meet the rated octane.
The issue....my issue.... with Ethanol blended fuel is that its quality varies highly with the level of water absorbed. Its rarely a refining or blending issue.
If you live in humid areas and fill up at stations that dont refill tanks at least bi-weekly (most high volume stations fill up at least bi-weekly....most truck stops....weekly or more)......the water absor0tion rate can be high.
It has never been an issue with pinging with ethanol based fuel with high water content. In fact.....the additioj of water while not raising octane....has the effect of reducing the need for higher octane due to lower flame temp....same basic effect as water injection.
It also reduces the overall efficiency as it displaces higher BTU fuel in the mix. Even thats not a huge issue. The issue is lower specific engine output for the same fuel input....which is noticable on some vehicles....especially newer ones. Most of the newer VW/Audi products idle poorly when the water content in the fuel is high. They run well....Idle poorly.....and generally get about 3 mpg less across the board. Ray
PS.....my big issue with ethanol is a, government intervention bullshit issue.
In the beginning ethanol was added starting in the late 80s and into the 90s. It was added.....not as an alternate fuel source as it is touted now .....but as an emmissions device to reduce NOX emmissions. .......something it was not yet fully clear it could do on all vehicles. In the beginning it was added for this purpose at 3%.
In and about 1988 I watched three days of crap on C-span during the senate sub-committe hearings on the CAFE standards. About 100 scientists from all over, members of the big 3....chemist etc.....pleaded with our elected assholes......who wanted to put in 5% ethanol....primarily pushed by the whoring ethanol/industrial farming industry.....when it was scientifically proven that volumes over 3%......had "0"....extra effect on NOX emmissions.
Our elected idiots put 5% in anyway.
Cut to the 90s....and im watching this fiasco/farce again on C-span......when MTBE proves to be a carcinogenic water table pollutant...and they jack up the use of ethanol as a purported oxygenation product.....which it is.....but not at 10% levels....because its b3ej shown now.....to negatively effect hydrocarbon levela over the last decade.......again pumped by the massiv3 ethanol lobby.
Now.....the pujlic with shit for memory......has bought the current administration line that the use of ethanol is about getting us off of mideast oil as a renewable fuel stream supplement...and is pushing for 15% by volume. .......again pushed by the corn ethanol lobby.....even though it costs almost 2.5X to produce than petroleum based straight fuel.
Ray |
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kevin77westy
Samba Member
Joined: November 12, 2004
Posts: 795
Location: Ocean Springs, MS
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Kirk wrote: |
I run 93 octane and always have. Bus runs way worse on the cheap stuff. When I find 100% gas stations I buy whatever octane they offer, and the bus LOVES that stuff.
Maybe its me, dunno. |
I'm in this camp. I run 100% gas with the lowest octane when home and then on road trips I buy premium if I can't get the ethanol free gas. If I am going to let the bus sit for a while I always use ethanol free and add a little stabilizer. |
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| LivinInnaVWBus wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
| LivinInnaVWBus wrote: |
| No issues with pinging no matter the load I'm carrying and it keeps the combustion chamber a lot cleaner. The carbon build up with low grade gas is horrendous. |
How does this work? A hotter mixture burns carbon deposits away. Remember that octane rating is NOT a quality rating.
You're saying that because a fuel is more inclined to ping, that it builds up more carbon? On the other side of the isle, we have gintaras saying higher octane gas runs cooler, which by the laws of physics should result in MORE carbon build up.
Robbie |
Nope, two unrelated reasons why I use premium.
BP and Shell use higher amounts of detergents in their premium grade.
I comment about the build up because I tear down and build my own engines, not because I've read or heard it somewhere.
IMO, octane ratings play no role in cooling abilities, though word around the campfire seems different. |
The amount of detergent in fuel grades does not differ one from another. What does differ is the octane rating. Top tier is top tier no matter where you go. If your having a carbon build up issue fix your engine.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
As noted from the original post.....this was a two forked question:
1. About what octane to use
2. About our thoughts on ethanol
Two very different items. As Skills noted....and I fully realize. ....octane rating has nothing to do with fuel quality......unless a fuel of a rated octane is so poor in quality that it does not meet the rated octane.
The issue....my issue.... with Ethanol blended fuel is that its quality varies highly with the level of water absorbed. Its rarely a refining or blending issue.
If you live in humid areas and fill up at stations that dont refill tanks at least bi-weekly (most high volume stations fill up at least bi-weekly....most truck stops....weekly or more)......the water absor0tion rate can be high.
It has never been an issue with pinging with ethanol based fuel with high water content. In fact.....the additioj of water while not raising octane....has the effect of reducing the need for higher octane due to lower flame temp....same basic effect as water injection.
It also reduces the overall efficiency as it displaces higher BTU fuel in the mix. Even thats not a huge issue. The issue is lower specific engine output for the same fuel input....which is noticable on some vehicles....especially newer ones. Most of the newer VW/Audi products idle poorly when the water content in the fuel is high. They run well....Idle poorly.....and generally get about 3 mpg less across the board. Ray
PS.....my big issue with ethanol is a, government intervention bullshit issue.
In the beginning ethanol was added starting in the late 80s and into the 90s. It was added.....not as an alternate fuel source as it is touted now .....but as an emmissions device to reduce NOX emmissions. .......something it was not yet fully clear it could do on all vehicles. In the beginning it was added for this purpose at 3%.
In and about 1988 I watched three days of crap on C-span during the senate sub-committe hearings on the CAFE standards. About 100 scientists from all over, members of the big 3....chemist etc.....pleaded with our elected assholes......who wanted to put in 5% ethanol....primarily pushed by the whoring ethanol/industrial farming industry.....when it was scientifically proven that volumes over 3%......had "0"....extra effect on NOX emmissions.
Our elected idiots put 5% in anyway.
Cut to the 90s....and im watching this fiasco/farce again on C-span......when MTBE proves to be a carcinogenic water table pollutant...and they jack up the use of ethanol as a purported oxygenation product.....which it is.....but not at 10% levels....because its b3ej shown now.....to negatively effect hydrocarbon levela over the last decade.......again pumped by the massiv3 ethanol lobby.
Now.....the pujlic with shit for memory......has bought the current administration line that the use of ethanol is about getting us off of mideast oil as a renewable fuel stream supplement...and is pushing for 15% by volume. .......again pushed by the corn ethanol lobby.....even though it costs almost 2.5X to produce than petroleum based straight fuel.
Ray |
Not to mention ethanol also has lower BTU compared to ethanol free meaning...less MPG's. They need to do away with the ethanol fuel due to cars being much more efficient & cleaner burning than years earlier....mpg's will go up as a result, lowering overall fuel demand.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires
Last edited by udidwht on Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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All of that being said......E-85 and even 100% ethanol with additives is an excellent motor fuel....in a car with engine and fuel system specifically designed for it (emmisions aside)
My only "other" issue with doing that....is that on this continent. ...our corn ethanol industry is just about the most expensive, wasteful and polluting method of producing ethanol in the world....subsidized by OUR tax dollars.....what bullshit! Ray |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2011
Posts: 1593
Location: Louisville, ky
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
All of that being said......E-85 and even 100% ethanol with additives is an excellent motor fuel....in a car with engine and fuel system specifically designed for it (emmisions aside)
My only "other" issue with doing that....is that on this continent. ...our corn ethanol industry is just about the most expensive, wasteful and polluting method of producing ethanol in the world....subsidized by OUR tax dollars.....what bullshit! Ray |
How does one set up the carburetor to run E85? Just change the jets and all the rubber fuel lines? Anyone done this? How is the fuel cost per mile? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
All of that being said......E-85 and even 100% ethanol with additives is an excellent motor fuel....in a car with engine and fuel system specifically designed for it (emmisions aside)
My only "other" issue with doing that....is that on this continent. ...our corn ethanol industry is just about the most expensive, wasteful and polluting method of producing ethanol in the world....subsidized by OUR tax dollars.....what bullshit! Ray |
How does one set up the carburetor to run E85? Just change the jets and all the rubber fuel lines? Anyone done this? How is the fuel cost per mile? |
I have no idea.... I personally have no use for carbs other than to block a window open in my bathroom. All of the vehicles I know of (doesnt mean there arent others).....that run E-85 are injected and set up for it. At this point all of them are flex fuel vehciles.
They have a specific gravity sensor in the fuel tank that allows them to sense whether normal gasoline blends or E-85 or a mix is in the tank. That allows software to adjust the fuel curve and spark timing and knock sensors to run normally. Ray |
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mfemenel
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2014
Posts: 273
Location: Matthews, NC
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| Thank you for the feedback. Since it is readily available around charlotte i think i will try to use the no ethanol whenever possible and see how it feels with different octane ratings. I'm sure this is not a one size fits all problem either. Each of our busses has enough variation in wear and our drivng styles that its probably very subjective. Good input all, and as always i leaned some things. |
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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Gas choices |
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| mfemenel wrote: |
| Just got our 79 FI Westy back the other day. What are opinions on what octane fuel to run? THe owners manual suggests the highest rating possible |
No, actually, it doesn't.
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