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j.pickens
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not the oil, it's probably the normal new engine gremlins. You have to figure which one or combination of them is causing your problem. Tight engine, improper chamber volume at piston tdc, stuck oil relief, Intake air leak, carburetor setup, timing, valve adjustment, valve seating, etc. Etc....

Is this a new engine build? If so, what does the builder say?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

redxxrdr wrote:
I have seen synthetic oil raise the temperature 2-3 degrees on my bikes. And they are water cooled. Are you using the same type of oil as you did at the previous oil change besides weight?
And is it possible that a plastic bag or a shop rag was left in the engine compartment? Maybe sucked into the fan and blocking the cooler?
yes same brand, just different weight. Already checked the fan.....nothing.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

j.pickens wrote:
It's not the oil, it's probably the normal new engine gremlins. You have to figure which one or combination of them is causing your problem. Tight engine, improper chamber volume at piston tdc, stuck oil relief, Intake air leak, carburetor setup, timing, valve adjustment, valve seating, etc. Etc....

Is this a new engine build? If so, what does the builder say?
yes its a new engine with about 600 miles.......builder said he like temps under 200 and suggested a thermostat operated fan cooler........don't really want to go that route. So my next steps in stages is to install a type four oil cooler...check temps.....then a 356 gen pulley. I just know the 10/30 as most people suggest shot my temps up to 245.....from the 235 I have been seeing in 90 degree weather. I have checked intake nuts, timing is around 28-29 degrees at 3200 rpm. I need to install my tack next to see rpms.....don't think its much, just because my foot is barley on the pedal at 60 mph. All of my three buses temps were around 225-235 with new engines, using same brand oil and weight......so maybe after some miles it will run cooler? Second valve adjustment once at 100 second at 500........going to give her a spin.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

O bet you're running lean. Pull the plugs.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KevinAlbrecht wrote:
O bet you're running lean. Pull the plugs.
muffler is sootie/black....good indication its ok. Guess I need to check plugs. Getting about 16 mpg also good indication jets are ok. Thanks. Going to pull motor out and take aftermarket tins off and install new oem tins w/thermostat.....Type 4 cooler, and 356 gen pulley......if this don't lower temps, think I will just throw a match to it...lol
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well.......turns out my new digital timing light the flash wasn't consistent, it had a little hesitation in the flash. After I adjusted the valves for the second time, I set timing and noticed the flash it was a sunny day and it was hard to tell. So I returned timing light and got another one......sure enough it was off my five degrees 15 base and 35 max. Re-adjusted to 30 max and took her for a spin.....temps were 225 max, made a huge difference from 245. I have ordered a type4 cooler euromax, and a 356 pulley combo from stodden. I will install pulley first and do some temp test, then remove engine and install new oem tins w/Berg modified cooler tin, thermostat......then temp test again. I had read where someone suggested to drill a half inch hole in fan shroud block off caps I have them installed in hose below tin so air escapes below the tin. I had read that with heat exchangers, when heat was cut off it has an air escape little vent and without the hole in block off cap it would create turbulence in the fan shroud and air wouldn't be distributed properly over the heads? Anyway.............will post as I make modifications.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Four degrees extra timing on my big engine is 10 degrees extra temp also, sounds like you've got it figured.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow, a lot of different advice in this forum than the performance forum.

There is a very good thread explaining oil flow and cooling on this site. Search 'oil relief'. Some guy tested over 30 engines and made posted his engineering report. Very informative.

Timing and fuel:
Covered extensively, sounds like you got a good handle on it.
do check you spark plug gaps, I had and engine with worn plug and regapping with new plugs made a big difference.

Air flow:
Everybody harps on this, but it rarely seems to make a 'hot' engine run cool when posters do all the little seal things that people tell them to. Yes, if you are missing all seals thats one thing, but.. In my experience running 'hot' is usually some with how the engine runs.. not the dingus seal, 'magical' hoover bit or other stuff. If you think you have all ( read most ) of the seals in place, you're done, but thats just me.

Oil flow:
Seems to me making sure you have the correct oil flow is important to cooling. Your larger than stock (30mm) oil pump may have the tendency to overwhelm the oil relief bypass valve. That is why people suggested you try a lower weight oil. The oil relief bypass valve stays closed while the oil pressure is elevated, so oil does not go to the oil cooler. Higher oil pressure is caused by: low ambient temps ( and when starting the engine cold ), heavier weight oil, and oil pump. I personally would consider a 26mm pump or a heavy duty oil relief spring in conjunction with 10-30 grade oil. Replacing the oil relief spring is easy. An oil pressure gauge would help diagnose this.

I'm sorry but 225 is not 'too hot', but this is my personal opinion. 200-220F is the sweet spot but you can live with it up to 240F. And yes, new engines run hotter as the rings break in.

I'd really like to know why your builder used a 30mm oil pump.
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JohnnyRingo
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iamdonquixote wrote:
wow, a lot of different advice in this forum than the performance forum.

There is a very good thread explaining oil flow and cooling on this site. Search 'oil relief'. Some guy tested over 30 engines and made posted his engineering report. Very informative.

Timing and fuel:
Covered extensively, sounds like you got a good handle on it.
do check you spark plug gaps, I had and engine with worn plug and regapping with new plugs made a big difference.

Air flow:
Everybody harps on this, but it rarely seems to make a 'hot' engine run cool when posters do all the little seal things that people tell them to. Yes, if you are missing all seals thats one thing, but.. In my experience running 'hot' is usually some with how the engine runs.. not the dingus seal, 'magical' hoover bit or other stuff. If you think you have all ( read most ) of the seals in place, you're done, but thats just me.

Oil flow:
Seems to me making sure you have the correct oil flow is important to cooling. Your larger than stock (30mm) oil pump may have the tendency to overwhelm the oil relief bypass valve. That is why people suggested you try a lower weight oil. The oil relief bypass valve stays closed while the oil pressure is elevated, so oil does not go to the oil cooler. Higher oil pressure is caused by: low ambient temps ( and when starting the engine cold ), heavier weight oil, and oil pump. I personally would consider a 26mm pump or a heavy duty oil relief spring in conjunction with 10-30 grade oil. Replacing the oil relief spring is easy. An oil pressure gauge would help diagnose this.

I'm sorry but 225 is not 'too hot', but this is my personal opinion. 200-220F is the sweet spot but you can live with it up to 240F. And yes, new engines run hotter as the rings break in.

I'd really like to know why your builder used a 30mm oil pump.
Pat Downs@cbperformance seems to be a top builder, I would think he has a good reason? Motor is full flowed so would a stronger pump push oil at a faster rate or more efficient through oil lines, and filter? 30mm pumps is just about all they carry at cbp. This stuff is all new to me. I'm happy with 225 temps in 90+ degree weather. But Pat said he likes to see temps under 200. I had read where condensation would not boil off in engine unless it reached 212 and if under that temp water can mix with oil and not lubricate as well......I guess the oil debate will never end..............If I didn't have a fortune in this motor and bus I wouldn't give a hoot.........it sure is nice to climb a hill and not have to gear down and run with traffic😀
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 36hp generator pulley should help lower the temps down a few more degrees. Please post your results when you get it on. Curious how much difference it will make.

Are you running the largest crank pulley and wide (34 mm?) fan?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnnyRingo wrote:
I had read where condensation would not boil off in engine unless it reached 212 and if under that temp water can mix with oil and not lubricate as well.....


Water evaporates temperatures below boiling so this is not a concern in my opinion. Evaporation rate between 212 and 190F at any relative humidity would be negligible .

JohnnyRingo wrote:

Motor is full flowed so would a stronger pump push oil at a faster rate or more efficient through oil lines, and filter?


Higher pressure does not equal higher flow is my understanding.
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JohnnyRingo
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StockNazi wrote:
The 36hp generator pulley should help lower the temps down a few more degrees. Please post your results when you get it on. Curious how much difference it will make.

Are you running the largest crank pulley and wide (34 mm?) fan?
yes
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Get a Dakota Digital head temp gauge. It's more important to know how hot your head temps are. Head temps change very quickly and an inferred gun will not be accurate as the heads will have cooled down by the time you pullover.
Best to be able to 'see' what's going on in the heads as you cruise the highway and climb hills.
I learned long ago that oil temps are not the engine temps, it's the head temps you should be concerned about.
Your new engine is tight and friction is what's setting the oil temps. With a good head temp gauge you will see any/all changes you make in timing, jets, etc.
Other opinions will vary.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Post removed.

Last edited by LivinInnaVWBus on Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mandraks wrote:
when it is hot, and the engine is running hot, it makes absolutely no sense to change to a lower weight oil.... i can't imagine any reason why you would not want to run a 20/50 weight oil.


How about because oil that heavy is likely to raise the oil pressure so much it bypasses the oil cooler. 20/50 rarely belongs in a street driven engine, unless it's beat and you're compensating for lost bearing material.

StockNazi wrote:

I don't think the oil is going to cause that much increase in engine temps.


Bruce Amacker wrote:

2. Thinner oils will give you higher oil temps, I proved it one day by changing my oil about 5 times in a row trying different viscosities and running it down the highway. (2180 Ghia)


Sorry Sir, but as a blanket statement this is not true. There is no universal answer for what oil weight belongs in what engine and at what time in it's life. Newer engines normally like lighter oil because the tolerances are tight and worn engines normally like heavier oils. It's an experiment which should be done multiple times in the engines life to maintain the lowest oil temperatures.
The variables are many but oil pump size, oil galley size, amount of oil lines run if any and condition of your bearings must all be taken into consideration.
I'll just give you my most recent example. The 1500 in my bus right now started off using 0w30 about two years ago, this engine was used but in good shape. About 6-8 months ago, I noticed the engine showing wear along with increased temperatures so I switched to 10w30 which brought them back down. Recently, after I've put well over 100K miles on it, I had to go to 20w50 to salvage what little life it had left. Last month I tore it down to inspect the parts, reseal, install new bearings and rings. Nothing was machined but now the engine likes 0w30 again, anything higher and it bumps the oil temps 15-20 degrees.

To the OP, a type 4 oil cooler and 356 pulley is a good addition to an already properly functioning system, yours is not that, you are covering up issues with these parts. Also, Jake Raby did extensive testing on a T4 oil cooler on a T1, his findings - the only time it may be worth it is if you use a Puma shroud. Personally, I have no experience with this and I'd argue it myself but Raby is a living legend of the ACVW world, one of the few innovators left in this scene and most take his word as law.
My recommendation, though Pat may have built your engine, your oil pump is too large. I use 21mm in most of my builds, 26mm at most. 30mm+ should only be used in special conditions, yours is not that. Either change your pump or change your oil to 0w30, I bet your issues will disappear immediately. As you said, CB carries mostly 30mm pumps, this is why your engine was built with it, not because it was the perfect choice for your engine.
Also, new engines run hot until they are broken in. If you are driving a bus and do not have an external oil cooler, you will not be able to keep your temps under 200 while on the highway, you'll be sitting around 220 in a properly built engine at 65mph once it's broken in.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LivinInnaVWBus wrote:
mandraks wrote:
when it is hot, and the engine is running hot, it makes absolutely no sense to change to a lower weight oil.... i can't imagine any reason why you would not want to run a 20/50 weight oil.


How about because oil that heavy is likely to raise the oil pressure so much it bypasses the oil cooler. 20/50 rarely belongs in a street driven engine, unless it's beat and you're compensating for lost bearing material.


i am sure a look into the service manual would show that a 20/50 oil is thinner than a 30 weight oil. Only when the engine gets hot it behaves like a heavier oil would perform at high temperatures.

VW ordered 20 and 30 weight oils from new. most all cars today take 20/50 oil or even a bigger spread like a 5/50

above 32 degrees Fahrenheit (freezing) 30 weight oil see user manuals

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/

in short: a 20/50 would be thinner than that when the engine is cold, and would protect better at higher temps.

i am sure the combination of after market oil pumps, and after market oil coolers will affect this one way or the other... just my 2 cents
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The importance of choosing the correct oil weight.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=467803&highlight=importance
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LivinInnaVWBus wrote:
Personally, I have no experience with this and I'd argue it myself but Raby is a living legend of the ACVW world, one of the few innovators left in this scene and most take his word as law.


RABY WHO?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LivinInnaVWBus wrote:
mandraks wrote:
when it is hot, and the engine is running hot, it makes absolutely no sense to change to a lower weight oil.... i can't imagine any reason why you would not want to run a 20/50 weight oil.


How about because oil that heavy is likely to raise the oil pressure so much it bypasses the oil cooler. 20/50 rarely belongs in a street driven engine, unless it's beat and you're compensating for lost bearing material.

StockNazi wrote:

I don't think the oil is going to cause that much increase in engine temps.


Bruce Amacker wrote:

2. Thinner oils will give you higher oil temps, I proved it one day by changing my oil about 5 times in a row trying different viscosities and running it down the highway. (2180 Ghia)


Sorry Sir, but as a blanket statement this is not true. There is no universal answer for what oil weight belongs in what engine and at what time in it's life. Newer engines normally like lighter oil because the tolerances are tight and worn engines normally like heavier oils. It's an experiment which should be done multiple times in the engines life to maintain the lowest oil temperatures.
The variables are many but oil pump size, oil galley size, amount of oil lines run if any and condition of your bearings must all be taken into consideration.
I'll just give you my most recent example. The 1500 in my bus right now started off using 0w30 about two years ago, this engine was used but in good shape. About 6-8 months ago, I noticed the engine showing wear along with increased temperatures so I switched to 10w30 which brought them back down. Recently, after I've put well over 100K miles on it, I had to go to 20w50 to salvage what little life it had left. Last month I tore it down to inspect the parts, reseal, install new bearings and rings. Nothing was machined but now the engine likes 0w30 again, anything higher and it bumps the oil temps 15-20 degrees.

To the OP, a type 4 oil cooler and 356 pulley is a good addition to an already properly functioning system, yours is not that, you are covering up issues with these parts. Also, Jake Raby did extensive testing on a T4 oil cooler on a T1, his findings - the only time it may be worth it is if you use a Puma shroud. Personally, I have no experience with this and I'd argue it myself but Raby is a living legend of the ACVW world, one of the few innovators left in this scene and most take his word as law.
My recommendation, though Pat may have built your engine, your oil pump is too large. I use 21mm in most of my builds, 26mm at most. 30mm+ should only be used in special conditions, yours is not that. Either change your pump or change your oil to 0w30, I bet your issues will disappear immediately. As you said, CB carries mostly 30mm pumps, this is why your engine was built with it, not because it was the perfect choice for your engine.
Also, new engines run hot until they are broken in. If you are driving a bus and do not have an external oil cooler, you will not be able to keep your temps under 200 while on the highway, you'll be sitting around 220 in a properly built engine at 65mph once it's broken in.
. I changed the oil a few weeks ago to 10/30 same brand and didn't get 15 minutes up the highway and smoke was rolling out the rear....little bit of oil came up from dipstick tube and dropped on header.....I nursed her back home around 45 mph and checked temps and they were 245......since changed oil back to straight 40w and temps are back down to 225-235 on a long run. So do you think 0/30 will make that much difference? I think the 40% larger type4 cooler and the 2.2 ratio 356 pulley will be better than stock...and it can't hurt giving the heads a little more air.I had a 1.7 ratio with stock pulley, I will post all my results here as I make these changes...I have installed my pulley and will be making the same run and see what happens if any?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Running hot STUMPED again. Reply with quote

JohnnyRingo wrote:
Well I've been running 225-235 oil temps, outside temps in the 90's. So I changed oil 10-30 as just about everyone suggested, and a wix 51515r filter. I didn't get 15 minutes up the road at 55-60 and started smokin, my new hot oil sender dipstick(savemybug) oil was coming from the dipstick tube and the sender was pegged at 235. I pulled sender dipstick out and installed regular dipstick drove home 45-50 checked oil temps 245, with eloctronic meat probe. It was like I had to much pressure and it blew up from the dipstick....plus temps shot up......I just drove this bus 45 minutes the other night with new sender dipstick, 40w oil and fram hp1 oil filter, sender barely flickered at 225. So its got to be the oil or the wix filter?????? All new tins in place, aftermarket new doghouse, 66 bus big nut tranny, stock tires, all seals present.1904 74x90.5 dual 40mm webers, 30mm oil pump full flowed, mag case all new built by pat@cbperformance. I have read till I'm cross-eyed about temps pressure etc. John@aircooled articles suggested 10-30 oil in almost all new engines, and @45 oil psi it bypasses oil cooler......it seems like the thinner oil created more pressure and hotter temps???? Pat@cbperformance suggested I run 20-50 in summer......trying to find the sweet spot with oil grades. I know aircooled harleys and piston avation engines run 15-50/20-50 oil.


Johnny, those temps of 225 - 235 are perfectly normal temps for an air-cooled engine. Not all engines will run at these temps, but those that do are in a normal and acceptable range. Your engine is NOT RUNNING HOT. They do not run coolant so have a wider operating range. Please stop wasting time and cash - and risking your engine - on mythinformation.

Summer? Fill it with 15 or 20/50 and get back to cruising
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