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JohnnyRingo
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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 Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Well.............did my same little test and tune run. Temps 213 pretty significant from the 225 as the lowest I have recorded w/ valvoline vr1 sae 40w oil. Using the 356 silver Porsche pulley from Stoddard with five shims between the two halves and five shims on the outside, 6 3/4 equalizer 6 lb crank pulley and a 10x875 Continental notched vbelt. My ratio went from 1.7 to 2.2 over stock pulley. Next step is the type4 cooler modification. I have ordered the Dakota oil pressure and head temp gauges. So the only thing I can go on now is measuring down the dipstick tube with my digital meat thermometer w/long probe that I have been using. |
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Bruce Amacker
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Joined: December 26, 2007
Posts: 1786
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| So the only thing I can go on now is measuring down the dipstick tube with my digital meat thermometer w/long probe that I have been using. |
I've got a mechanical oil temp gauge in my Ghia with the sender in the sump (universal case, sender in the T3 oil dipstick cover plate). I notice a definite drop in oil temp from the time I'm at 85mph until I get off the highway at a rest stop and to zero MPH. Your reading at speed may be 5-20* hotter than you're getting with a meat thermometer because of this. For accurate temporary monitoring, you might try a DVOM with a wire temp probe stuck down the dipstick tube hole (using a small cork or something to stop splash) with two long wires run to the DVOM in the drivers compartment. Verify the accuracy of the DVOM/temp probe using an IR gun and boiling water (which does NOT boil at 212* due to chemicals and altitude). Maybe try distilled water to get a more accurate test. I have 30-40 DVOMs (I teach automotive electrical among other things) so I've tried a lot, and the cheapie meters are not always accurate (but sometimes are very accurate). The $200-400 Flukes are better.
Good Luck!
_________________
'66 Deluxe Bus
'65 Standard Bus
Build threads:
'66- http://www.leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2888&sid=54d8dedfb3822f99c7f2ea430cb4e856
'65- http://leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4263 |
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VWCOOL
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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Have you tried a red Porsche pulley?
Red ones tend to go faster, so lose the heat quicker...? |
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ovalhobo
Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2010
Posts: 257
Location: Prince George, BC, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I had the same problem in my bus. Turned out to be a loose belt (not turning the fan as it should it will get hot fast, especially when pulling hills). |
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JohnnyRingo
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| VWCOOL wrote: |
Have you tried a red Porsche pulley?
Red ones tend to go faster, so lose the heat quicker...? |
This forum should be for good info, and help........not you're sarcasm. Please find another place to use you're expert advise. |
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VWCOOL
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| VWCOOL wrote: |
Have you tried a red Porsche pulley?
Red ones tend to go faster, so lose the heat quicker...? |
This forum should be for good info, and help........not you're sarcasm. Please find another place to use you're expert advise. |
Sorry, I couldn't resist. You're banging on about silver Porsche pulleys and buying bling gauges instead of addressing the real problem... which is non-existent. I've already given you just about all the help you will ever need to sort out your perceived 'problem' |
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JohnnyRingo
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| VWCOOL wrote: |
| JohnnyRingo wrote: |
| VWCOOL wrote: |
Have you tried a red Porsche pulley?
Red ones tend to go faster, so lose the heat quicker...? |
This forum should be for good info, and help........not you're sarcasm. Please find another place to use you're expert advise. |
Sorry, I couldn't resist. You're banging on about silver Porsche pulleys and buying bling gauges instead of addressing the real problem... which is non-existent. I've already given you just about all the help you will ever need to sort out your perceived 'problem' |
just an explanation of what I'm using in detail......and my experience so far w/modifications. Nothing more nothing less. I'm not an expert......with a modified VW everything is a learning curve for me.....and maybe I can give good advice with something that has worked for me to someone else who's struggling to learn? |
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Bruce Amacker
Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2007
Posts: 1786
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:54 am Post subject: |
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1. JohhnyRingo's problem most definitely could be real because he has a big CC twin carb engine pushing a big heavy bus with a stock oil cooler, that's a perfect recipe for excessive oil temps. His ways of measuring oil temp are fairly accurate but perhaps could be improved upon. I had a similar problem with my Ghia- big engine, stock cooler, high temps, I worked through the problem in almost the exact same way as he is.
2. His thought process makes very good sense- measure oil temps at speed, increase the fan speed for more cooling (although this could be debatable, the gurus seem to think an over speeded fan cavitates), and install a larger oil cooler. Try different oil viscosities and research oil pump size and etc to see if the proper combination of parts were used in building the engine. Not much to argue here.
3. Sarcasm and silly answers are of no help.
_________________
'66 Deluxe Bus
'65 Standard Bus
Build threads:
'66- http://www.leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2888&sid=54d8dedfb3822f99c7f2ea430cb4e856
'65- http://leakoil.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4263 |
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Pat D
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2004
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| LivinInnaVWBus wrote: |
| mandraks wrote: |
| when it is hot, and the engine is running hot, it makes absolutely no sense to change to a lower weight oil.... i can't imagine any reason why you would not want to run a 20/50 weight oil. |
How about because oil that heavy is likely to raise the oil pressure so much it bypasses the oil cooler. 20/50 rarely belongs in a street driven engine, unless it's beat and you're compensating for lost bearing material.
| StockNazi wrote: |
I don't think the oil is going to cause that much increase in engine temps.
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| Bruce Amacker wrote: |
2. Thinner oils will give you higher oil temps, I proved it one day by changing my oil about 5 times in a row trying different viscosities and running it down the highway. (2180 Ghia) |
Sorry Sir, but as a blanket statement this is not true. There is no universal answer for what oil weight belongs in what engine and at what time in it's life. Newer engines normally like lighter oil because the tolerances are tight and worn engines normally like heavier oils. It's an experiment which should be done multiple times in the engines life to maintain the lowest oil temperatures.
The variables are many but oil pump size, oil galley size, amount of oil lines run if any and condition of your bearings must all be taken into consideration.
I'll just give you my most recent example. The 1500 in my bus right now started off using 0w30 about two years ago, this engine was used but in good shape. About 6-8 months ago, I noticed the engine showing wear along with increased temperatures so I switched to 10w30 which brought them back down. Recently, after I've put well over 100K miles on it, I had to go to 20w50 to salvage what little life it had left. Last month I tore it down to inspect the parts, reseal, install new bearings and rings. Nothing was machined but now the engine likes 0w30 again, anything higher and it bumps the oil temps 15-20 degrees.
To the OP, a type 4 oil cooler and 356 pulley is a good addition to an already properly functioning system, yours is not that, you are covering up issues with these parts. Also, Jake Raby did extensive testing on a T4 oil cooler on a T1, his findings - the only time it may be worth it is if you use a Puma shroud. Personally, I have no experience with this and I'd argue it myself but Raby is a living legend of the ACVW world, one of the few innovators left in this scene and most take his word as law.
My recommendation, though Pat may have built your engine, your oil pump is too large. I use 21mm in most of my builds, 26mm at most. 30mm+ should only be used in special conditions, yours is not that. Either change your pump or change your oil to 0w30, I bet your issues will disappear immediately. As you said, CB carries mostly 30mm pumps, this is why your engine was built with it, not because it was the perfect choice for your engine.
Also, new engines run hot until they are broken in. If you are driving a bus and do not have an external oil cooler, you will not be able to keep your temps under 200 while on the highway, you'll be sitting around 220 in a properly built engine at 65mph once it's broken in. |
A stock pressure bypass spring for the cooler opens at 75-80 psi. A stock oil pressure bypass opens at 40-45 psi. I do not agree that a 30mm pump will have enough pressure to bypass the cooler at 200 degrees oil temp.
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Last edited by Pat D on Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:33 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Pat D
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Joined: March 10, 2004
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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I have seen early buses run hot with dual carbs do to the fact that not enough air is getting into the engine compartment. The engine itself is taking air away from the fan. Have you tried running scoops on your vents to help pull more air into the engine compartment?
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Pat, Im too fast slow me downs! |
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JohnnyRingo
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Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Pat D wrote: |
| I have seen early buses run hot with dual carbs do to the fact that not enough air is getting into the engine compartment. The engine itself is taking air away from the fan. Have you tried running scoops on your vents to help pull more air into the engine compartment? |
no I haven't....... but that was my thought also. Those dual 40mm webers are sucking some air thats being directed through the early vents. So I'm sure the extra fan speed helps pull more air, because I did get about 13 degrees cooler oil temps. Glad to see the builder getting involved in the discussion. |
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Pat D
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Joined: March 10, 2004
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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One throat of your dual carbs is using as much air as the stock solex. If you think about it, your intake system is pulling about 75% more air from the engine compartment. How about making some really simple scoops and doing a test to see if it drops your engine temp?
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Pat, Im too fast slow me downs! |
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JohnnyRingo
Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2011
Posts: 415
Location: United States
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Pat D wrote: |
| One throat of your dual carbs is using as much air as the stock solex. If you think about it, your intake system is pulling about 75% more air from the engine compartment. How about making some really simple scoops and doing a test to see if it drops your engine temp? |
wow......that's alot of air. I will try this and report back with results, stay tuned. |
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EverettB 
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Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69829
Location: Phoenix Metro
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cru62
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Joined: December 31, 2002
Posts: 4117
Location: Margaritaville.....24/7
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Pat D wrote: |
| One throat of your dual carbs is using as much air as the stock solex. If you think about it, your intake system is pulling about 75% more air from the engine compartment. How about making some really simple scoops and doing a test to see if it drops your engine temp? |
I'm certainly no expert, but you would need to increase the displacement of the engine dramatically for that kind of flow increase. With a stock 1600, for example, going from a single Venturi to four would not increase the volume of air the engine needs. The volume of air needed by each Venturi is now 25% of what the single Venturi/carb required.
Increasing the speed of the engine (rpms) could also increase the demand for available air in the engine compartment.
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Pat D
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Joined: March 10, 2004
Posts: 414
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| cru62 wrote: |
| Pat D wrote: |
| One throat of your dual carbs is using as much air as the stock solex. If you think about it, your intake system is pulling about 75% more air from the engine compartment. How about making some really simple scoops and doing a test to see if it drops your engine temp? |
I'm certainly no expert, but you would need to increase the displacement of the engine dramatically for that kind of flow increase. With a stock 1600, for example, going from a single Venturi to four would not increase the volume of air the engine needs. The volume of air needed by each Venturi is now 25% of what the single Venturi/carb required.
Increasing the speed of the engine (rpms) could also increase the demand for available air in the engine compartment. |
His engine makes close to 140 H-P, this engine is using ALLOT more air than the stock engine did. His engine is producing 40 psi of oil pressure at 3200 rpm when at operating temp, not enough pressure to open the oil cooler bypass.
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cru62
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Posts: 4117
Location: Margaritaville.....24/7
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:56 am Post subject: |
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Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the bypass triggered by low pressure as the oil heats up and thins? I thought that the high pressure of cold, thick oil bypasses the cooler since it is not needed and will blow up the cooler.
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"My biggest worry is that when I die, my wife will sell all my parts for what I told her I paid for them"-Jon
Jokes about German sausage are the wurst.
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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VWCOOL
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 1821
Location: Down under
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| Pat D wrote: |
| One throat of your dual carbs is using as much air as the stock solex. If you think about it, your intake system is pulling about 75% more air from the engine compartment. How about making some really simple scoops and doing a test to see if it drops your engine temp? |
Are you sure each carb throat is not open 1/4 of what a standard Solex would be for the same power output/vehicle speed?
Many hands make light work...? |
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Cptn. Calzone
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Joined: June 27, 2007
Posts: 1855
Location: S>E>Alabama
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:25 am Post subject: bus scoop |
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I am with Pat.The stock split has noty near enough airt entering the engine bay to support a 2 litre 2 carbed motor AND cool sufficently.I fabbed up a 3 x12 scoop under the Single cab just ahead af the drivers side rear wheel.The scoop funnels down to a 2/12" pipe and dumps right into the engine bay.That motor runs coo and strong
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67 912 Porsche Quintilla
67 Single Cab aka my work horse |
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cru62
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Joined: December 31, 2002
Posts: 4117
Location: Margaritaville.....24/7
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:29 am Post subject: |
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Exactly. VW seems to have realized that as well. Just look at the evolution of cooling vents on a Type 2. Once you start stuffing big displacement engines in compartments with vents designed for 1200cc, something has to give. Either your engine starves for combustion air, cooling air or both, it can get warmer than is good for it. And without good sealing of the engine compartment, guess where that new air comes from?
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