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BeSquare
Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2013
Posts: 10
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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 Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2015 11:36 pm Post subject: Hello...Help! I need to know if I am being ripped off! |
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Ok...long explanation on this one but will try to keep it brief and forgive me for not knowing all of the correct terminology about my car. I am a girl and I don't really always understand this stuff. I have a 1973 Squareback F.I. About 6-7 months ago I finally took it into my "regular" VW shop after driving it for about 3 months where it died on me EVERY TIME I would stop (or take my foot off gas pedal) I waited because I didn't have the money to have it worked on. I also needed to get thru emissions. So...the mechanic told me that the points were out of adjustment (I guess there is 3 sets of points? The ones that control the FI he said) so it really didn't cost as much as I had thought it would. Anyway...I failed emissions based on my IDLE hydrocarbons being 800 something and they should be 400 something. I never took it back to mechanic and have been driving around with expired plates since then...So about a month ago it started BACKFIRING on me when I would decelerate...and just recently it started dying on me every time I stop again! This time I took it to a different VW shop. Told them I need it running decent enough to sell and get it thru emissions but money is tight....Took him 5 days to even look at it and when he finally did he called and told me it was only running on 2 cylinders. He said one plug was gunked bad with oil and I can't remember what he said about the other one....maybe it was stripped or something? anyway....he was unable to do compression test until he replaced them. Today he called said he was able to do compression test and the 4th one is only at like 30 lbs ? Now he is telling me that it still dies and won't pass emissions. He wants to pull engine and check heads? or rings in pistons or something and that its going to cost me about $2200! Can anyone tell me if this sounds right? Or should I take it and get a second opinion? I cannot affored to do this....HELP!  |
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ddare
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2005
Posts: 583
Location: Cypress, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 5:45 am Post subject: |
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Since you're looking to sell the car and not sink a lot of money into repairs first, I would see if I could pass emissions by filling up with higher octane gas & making sure the engine is nice and warm before the test. Ive never had to get my VW smogged here in CA so I dont have direct experience.
You could also adjust your MPS (little canister thingie hanging down just below engine lid on the left side of bay) to make the engine run leaner. You may even have the style of FI that lets you make the adjustment on the ECU. Make the adjustment for the test and change it back right after if it runs worse, i.e. pinging or detonating. If your MPS has never been adjusted I would keep it as is and pick up one off eBay/thesamba classifieds that has already been tampered with to make adjustments.
If your compression really is that low on one cylinder, that's going to keep your car from idling smoothly as it wont have consistent vacuum for the MPS. Ideally compression should be around 100 and within 15 psi of each other. If he's just doing a top end rebuild (which is what you described, pulling heads and changing pistons/cylinders/rings) I believe he should be able to leave the engine in the car. The cost of parts shouldnt be more than $250 or so.
I'm still kind of a hack when it comes to wrenching on these but thought I would help get the discussion going anyway. |
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customcityjim
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2011
Posts: 114
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| At $2200 you are being ripped off. |
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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5993
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:49 am Post subject: Re: Hello...Help! I need to know if I am being ripped off! |
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| BeSquare wrote: |
| Ok...long explanation on this one but will try to keep it brief and forgive me for not knowing all of the correct terminology about my car. I am a girl and I don't really always understand this stuff. |
Being a girl doesn't have anything to do with anything; men are no more likely to understand this stuff than women - it's only that men are more culturally expected to. But ask a random guy on the street how a car works and more than likely whatever he says will be wrong. 
Man or woman, if you invest the time into learning how this stuff works and understanding the concepts, you'll be set. If you don't, you'll be at the mercy of others which brings us to your questions:
| Quote: |
I have a 1973 Squareback F.I. About 6-7 months ago I finally took it into my "regular" VW shop after driving it for about 3 months where it died on me EVERY TIME I would stop (or take my foot off gas pedal) I waited because I didn't have the money to have it worked on. I also needed to get thru emissions. So...the mechanic told me that the points were out of adjustment (I guess there is 3 sets of points? The ones that control the FI he said) |
OK so in this engine there indeed 3 sets of points, though I would call it two sets. You have the regular ignition breaker points under the distributor cap like every other car of that era whether it has FI or carbs - these are the ones that basically control when the spark is generated. These need to be set/gapped properly for the ignition system to work well and whenever they are adjusted, the ignition timing then needs to be re-adjusted.
Now the FI system has its own set of points, but as your mechanic said, it's really like 2 sets in one. They are also in the distributor but you can't see them when they're installed, they go into the distributor body through the side. These guys work in principle like the ignition points but what they do is tell the fuel injection system when to fire the injectors. The fuel injectors fire in pairs, which is why there are two sets of points - 1 for each pair of injectors. These don't typically need to be adjusted like ignition points but it is possible for them to get worn out or dirty and not function properly.
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so it really didn't cost as much as I had thought it would. Anyway...I failed emissions based on my IDLE hydrocarbons being 800 something and they should be 400 something. I never took it back to mechanic and have been driving around with expired plates since then...So about a month ago it started BACKFIRING on me when I would decelerate...and just recently it started dying on me every time I stop again! This time I took it to a different VW shop. |
Any reason why you didn't take it to your regular guy?
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Told them I need it running decent enough to sell and get it thru emissions but money is tight....Took him 5 days to even look at it and when he finally did he called and told me it was only running on 2 cylinders. He said one plug was gunked bad with oil and I can't remember what he said about the other one....maybe it was stripped or something? anyway....he was unable to do compression test until he replaced them. Today he called said he was able to do compression test and the 4th one is only at like 30 lbs ? |
Yeah it's not gonna pass emissions if one of your cylinders is only at 30 psi compression. There's some mechanical defect that is preventing that cylinder from achieving proper compression. This could be as simple as the valves being out of adjustment (this is a regular maintenance item that needs to be done every 6000 miles at most) or it would be worn out piston rings, a burned valve, dropped valve seat, etc. If any of those, you're getting into rebuild territory. A leakdown test is cheap and would tell you whether the compression is escaping into the crankcase (indicating worn rings), into the intake (indicating intake valve problem) or into the exhaust (indicating exhaust valve problem).
If a plug is gunked up with oil that usually indicates that oil is making its way into the cylinder somehow, probably through worn piston rings or possibly also through worn valve guides. Is the one that's gunked up with oil the same one with low compression?
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Now he is telling me that it still dies and won't pass emissions. He wants to pull engine and check heads? or rings in pistons or something and that its going to cost me about $2200! Can anyone tell me if this sounds right? Or should I take it and get a second opinion? I cannot affored to do this....HELP! |
Labor is expensive. What he is proposing is the next logical step (aside from a leakdown test). However it's also a lot of hours of work. If you're gonna pay someone to do that work, it's gonna cost. Is he saying it's gonna cost $2200 just to pull the engine and check the heads or is he estimating that the entire job including fixing whatever is wrong will cost around $2200? If the former, then yeah sounds like you're being ripped off. If the latter, maybe not so much.
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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BeSquare
Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2013
Posts: 10
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| ddare wrote: |
Since you're looking to sell the car and not sink a lot of money into repairs first, I would see if I could pass emissions by filling up with higher octane gas & making sure the engine is nice and warm before the test. Ive never had to get my VW smogged here in CA so I dont have direct experience.
You could also adjust your MPS (little canister thingie hanging down just below engine lid on the left side of bay) to make the engine run leaner. You may even have the style of FI that lets you make the adjustment on the ECU. Make the adjustment for the test and change it back right after if it runs worse, i.e. pinging or detonating. If your MPS has never been adjusted I would keep it as is and pick up one off eBay/thesamba classifieds that has already been tampered with to make adjustments.
If your compression really is that low on one cylinder, that's going to keep your car from idling smoothly as it wont have consistent vacuum for the MPS. Ideally compression should be around 100 and within 15 psi of each other. If he's just doing a top end rebuild (which is what you described, pulling heads and changing pistons/cylinders/rings) I believe he should be able to leave the engine in the car. The cost of parts shouldnt be more than $250 or so.
I'm still kind of a hack when it comes to wrenching on these but thought I would help get the discussion going anyway. |
Thanks so much for getting the discussion going! I only put premium grade gas into the car...mid grade at the very least. He told me he has to pull the engine....I believe that part since it is pancake...no? |
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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5993
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:19 am Post subject: |
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Yes engine has to come out to pull the heads.
It may theoretically be possible with the engine in the car but it would be a lot more difficult and time-consuming than just dropping the engine, so probably more expensive as well to do it that way.
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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BeSquare
Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2013
Posts: 10
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Hello...Help! I need to know if I am being ripped off! |
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Being a girl doesn't have anything to do with anything; men are no more likely to understand this stuff than women - it's only that men are more culturally expected to. But ask a random guy on the street how a car works and more than likely whatever he says will be wrong.
Man or woman, if you invest the time into learning how this stuff works and understanding the concepts, you'll be set. If you don't, you'll be at the mercy of others which brings us to your questions: |
you are totally right and I should really invest more time into learning about my car...I love this site and this forum actually teaches me quite a bit!
| Quote: |
| If a plug is gunked up with oil that usually indicates that oil is making its way into the cylinder somehow, probably through worn piston rings or possibly also through worn valve guides. Is the one that's gunked up with oil the same one with low compression? |
He did not say if it was the one with the oil or not...i will ask him today.
| Quote: |
| Labor is expensive. What he is proposing is the next logical step (aside from a leakdown test). However it's also a lot of hours of work. If you're gonna pay someone to do that work, it's gonna cost. Is he saying it's gonna cost $2200 just to pull the engine and check the heads or is he estimating that the entire job including fixing whatever is wrong will cost around $2200? If the former, then yeah sounds like you're being ripped off. If the latter, maybe not so much. |
Thank you so very much for your help! I will ask him if he did a leakdown test because he made it sound like he would need to drop engine and check the heads to find out if the rings or valves are bad...is there no way to know that without dropping engine? He was also saying that the heads may be bad because they are simply old. |
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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5993
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:33 am Post subject: Re: Hello...Help! I need to know if I am being ripped off! |
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| BeSquare wrote: |
Thank you so very much for your help! I will ask him if he did a leakdown test because he made it sound like he would need to drop engine and check the heads to find out if the rings or valves are bad...is there no way to know that without dropping engine? He was also saying that the heads may be bad because they are simply old. |
A leakdown test is almost like a compression test in reverse, you take out a spark plug and put in its place a threaded adapter that's connected to a leakdown test gauge. Basically you pump air into the cylinder with the piston at TDC and listen to hear where it's escaping.
If you get the air coming out of the intake, you look at intake valves. If you get the air coming out of the exhaust, you look at exhaust valves. If you get the air going into the crankcase and coming out the crankcase breather, you look at the rings. This will tell you there's a problem with a valve, for example, but it won't tell you exactly what the problem is and there are a few possible problems. But it would help you pinpoint the trouble to either heads or rings.
So a leakdown test would tell you ahead of time in what area to expect trouble but at the end of the day you will still have to pull the engine and get in there to find out what's actually wrong and fix it.
Heads don't go bad from age alone like vegetables do but depending on how many miles are on them, how hot the engine has gotten, how many heat cycles, etc etc, they do wear out like anything else. It's not so much the head itself that goes bad (unless something gets into the cylinder and gets banged around) but rather valves, valve seats, valve guides, etc., the working stuff attached to the head that wears out over time.
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33986
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Ignore advice about changing gas or mere timing. At 30 psi you have something deeper wrong that needs to be addressed.
This kind of situation forces you to make an assessment and decision. How long do you plan to keep the car? What is the condition of the rest of the car? Do you have alternate transportation available while you either work on it or have someone work on it? Do you have friends who are mechanical or familiar with VWs and can help? Are you set on driving an old VW or do you just need reliable cheap transportation? All these things can alter the direction you go. Think of the long term and judge accordingly. |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7533
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:40 am Post subject: |
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Dag,
I would go back to the first guy and see what he says..
Why not go back to him?
He treated you right before, right?
If two people say they see 30# on one cylinder, then you know its true.
beter yet,
Buy a compression tester at your local parts place and see for yourself.
It's only one bolt (the spark plug) yuo need to pull in order to see for yourself.
Sadly,
These cars are really, really old now, and can need basically everything.
Mechanics that know them are few and far between, and have little competition to keep them hungry.
Parts qare hard to find, and often crap quality.
Unless you are going to make this a hobby/lifestyle, and gear up to do your own work, You are better off with a modern car.
If you are just trying to sell it,
Often,
It's better to find a dreamer-buyer, who sees nothing but 'blue sky' when he looks at your car, and thinks he can fix it for cheap.
Money you throw at it making it better to sell isn't likely to come back to you at sale time as a result.
Even if you do your own work(!)
If you have to pay somebody to do the labor,
just cut and run.
Any money you spend to try and get it 'sale ready' will be a loss.
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Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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sctbrd
Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2013
Posts: 181
Location: Moravia, Czech Republic
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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There is also a network of people that would help someone without charging too much, just because they like doing that stuff. VW clubs and such.
Consider looking for people on theSamba in your area and messaging them- EverrettB for instance is the administrator and he is listed in Phoenix. |
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BeSquare
Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2013
Posts: 10
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Thank all of you so very much for your advice on my car. I LOVE my car, I love the VW culture and people...I wish I had the money and know how to keep it and make it wonderful but I just don't. If I could afford to buy a daily driver car (with A/C) and keep mine to slowly invest in it over time I sure would do it. I didn't pay a ton of money for it, if I would have done my homework on type 3's vs. type 1's I would have just bought a bug I think...sigh. I would be willing to trade my car for a good running bug, only because they are much easier to fix and parts are so much easier to get. If anyone is interested in making a trade let me know! |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| BeSquare wrote: |
| Thank all of you so very much for your advice on my car. I LOVE my car, I love the VW culture and people...I wish I had the money and know how to keep it and make it wonderful but I just don't. If I could afford to buy a daily driver car (with A/C) and keep mine to slowly invest in it over time I sure would do it. I didn't pay a ton of money for it, if I would have done my homework on type 3's vs. type 1's I would have just bought a bug I think...sigh. I would be willing to trade my car for a good running bug, only because they are much easier to fix and parts are so much easier to get. If anyone is interested in making a trade let me know! |
You're better off with the Squareback.... Type 1 parts are available but a lot of them are junk...
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| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5993
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| BeSquare wrote: |
| Thank all of you so very much for your advice on my car. I LOVE my car, I love the VW culture and people...I wish I had the money and know how to keep it and make it wonderful but I just don't. If I could afford to buy a daily driver car (with A/C) and keep mine to slowly invest in it over time I sure would do it. I didn't pay a ton of money for it, if I would have done my homework on type 3's vs. type 1's I would have just bought a bug I think...sigh. I would be willing to trade my car for a good running bug, only because they are much easier to fix and parts are so much easier to get. If anyone is interested in making a trade let me know! |
I'm not sure that Beetles are any easier to fix (I've had both). The Beetle and the Type 3 are pretty similar mechanically. It may be harder to find parts for the Type 3 but the experience/difficulty of working on them is pretty much the same. After all, the Type 3 engine is just a Type 1 engine with a different fan housing and accessories so it fits under the rear deck.
Any car this old is going to require a lot of time and money to keep going. The cars are from a different era; they require much more maintenance than modern cars, even when they were new. Combine that with 50 years of use, owner abuse, modifications, and stuff just wearing out, and you are gonna be in the same boat with any old VW.
They aren't cheap transportation anymore; they're too old for that now. You can buy them cheap, sure (some of them anyway), but as you've found, it's the upkeep that will cost you, especially if you're paying someone to do it.
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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BeSquare
Samba Member
Joined: September 15, 2013
Posts: 10
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:21 am Post subject: Update on my SB |
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Hey everyone thanks again for all the help/advice on my issue. I am selling my SB sadly and if anyone might be interested i put an ad up in the classifieds. Let me know if anybody thinks I am asking too much or too little...will post more pics tonight. Thanks all!  |
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