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Ghia Nut
Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2003
Posts: 1565
Location: B'ham Alabama
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 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| vwinnovator wrote: |
interesting. I have a box full of OG thermostats I bought off a PA shop owner.
was going to scrap them for the brass $$$.
Guess I'll hold on to them a while and wait for the thermostat "rush" of buyers about to happen....
value could skyrocket like the buses!!!!! |
PM'd as well
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mark tucker
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Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:53 am Post subject: |
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Ive seen people pay high dollar for them.
A god send.......wow.
were catching some flap now!!! |
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| 58 Plastic Tub wrote: |
We are in the "high performance" section of this site, though. Most of the serious hipo hardware really doesn't see temps below 50* or so on any sustained basis. My speedster will see temps in the 30s a couple of time a year before it's time to get put away for the winter.
...
Look, I don't think I'm smarter than anybody- least of all the really clever German engineers back in the 1930s. But I think for a lot of people running 150+ hp in a Type 1, and using a lot of stuff the Germans never imagined- slavishly worshiping them as the final word on some things (cooling systems) but not others (heads) seems silly.
Do as you like. There's more than one way to skin a cat. |
Yes, colder ambient temps would be more of a reason to run a thermostat. But IMO more power would too. Because the more power your engine puts out the more cooling you'll want to have. But when you're cruising along a highway you're only using about 20hp, regardless of engine size. So now its more likely to over cool the engine.
Now if you control your engine temps with flaps or a control ring or an oil thermostat the point is you're controlling your engine's temps. There's pros and cons to either way you do it. For an example of you didn't have all the HXV mods or spray bars or such then in a Type 1 engine an oil thermostat really wouldn't help control head temps because in a stock Type 1 not much oil gets into the heads.
Where I live it gets to way below zero so I'm running flaps now but am going to an oil thermostat as well.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Dan Ruddock
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Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| Juanito84 wrote: |
| 58 Plastic Tub wrote: |
We are in the "high performance" section of this site, though. Most of the serious hipo hardware really doesn't see temps below 50* or so on any sustained basis. My speedster will see temps in the 30s a couple of time a year before it's time to get put away for the winter.
...
Look, I don't think I'm smarter than anybody- least of all the really clever German engineers back in the 1930s. But I think for a lot of people running 150+ hp in a Type 1, and using a lot of stuff the Germans never imagined- slavishly worshiping them as the final word on some things (cooling systems) but not others (heads) seems silly.
Do as you like. There's more than one way to skin a cat. |
Yes, colder ambient temps would be more of a reason to run a thermostat. But IMO more power would too. Because the more power your engine puts out the more cooling you'll want to have. But when you're cruising along a highway you're only using about 20hp, regardless of engine size. So now its more likely to over cool the engine.
Now if you control your engine temps with flaps or a control ring or an oil thermostat the point is you're controlling your engine's temps. There's pros and cons to either way you do it. For an example of you didn't have all the HXV mods or spray bars or such then in a Type 1 engine an oil thermostat really wouldn't help control head temps because in a stock Type 1 not much oil gets into the heads.
Where I live it gets to way below zero so I'm running flaps now but am going to an oil thermostat as well. |
If the oil is not going to the cooler it will not over cool the engine unless it is very cold day but the plunger setup does not guarentee that as it is not very acurate and good at keeping all the oil away from the cooler.
Warm oil warm engine.
Dan |
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Zundfolge1432 
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Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12467
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| 58 Plastic Tub wrote: |
Excellent.
The open mind of TheSamba collective. Never disappointing. |
What the mind doesn't understand it worships or fears . |
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 15, 2002
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Location: Brew City
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Teeroy
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Joined: April 20, 2003
Posts: 3685
Location: Eastern WA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:57 am Post subject: Flaps or No Flaps? |
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Oil thermostat is fine to control your oil temp, but the stock flaps are more for head cooling and overall even engine warm up than for controlling oil temp. I personally try to at least put flaps in all my engines, even without a thermostat.
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79SuperVert
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Joined: May 31, 2002
Posts: 9758
Location: Elizabeth, NJ & La Isla Del Encanto
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| I have a couple hundred thermostats, flap assemblies and complete fan shrouds with all the flaps installed. If anyone is interested, let me know. |
Now you have one less thermostat in stock. 
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Dan Ruddock
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Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:27 am Post subject: Re: Flaps or No Flaps? |
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| Teeroy wrote: |
| Oil thermostat is fine to control your oil temp, but the stock flaps are more for head cooling and overall even engine warm up than for controlling oil temp. I personally try to at least put flaps in all my engines, even without a thermostat. |
Head temps are controlled by oil temp more that you would think. One thing I like about thick wall 92's is better heat tranfer from head to cylinder from a larger contact area. Cylinders are heavly cooled by oil from con rod oil splash. Yes not much cooling comes from oil in the rocker box but it all adds up.
I have first hand experiance on how hot my 356 heads got when my oil stat failed.
Dan |
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Flaps or No Flaps? |
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| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
| Teeroy wrote: |
| Oil thermostat is fine to control your oil temp, but the stock flaps are more for head cooling and overall even engine warm up than for controlling oil temp. I personally try to at least put flaps in all my engines, even without a thermostat. |
Head temps are controlled by oil temp more that you would think. One thing I like about thick wall 92's is better heat tranfer from head to cylinder from a larger contact area. Cylinders are heavly cooled by oil from con rod oil splash. Yes not much cooling comes from oil in the rocker box but it all adds up.
I have first hand experiance on how hot my 356 heads got when my oil stat failed.
Dan |
I would think that all depends on the design. Once again the Type 1 really limited oil to any place that gets hot. Yes there's splash behind the pistons and cylinders but it's still not enough to make much of a difference in a stock Type 1. In fact you can delete the oil cooler entirely in a stock Type 1 engine and not notice much of any difference in head or oil temps until you really start to push it. But Porsche is a different story. They don't have the lifters that only let oil to the heads when the valve is completely open like the Type 1s do. Also some Porsches have oil squirted behind the pistons.
In my opinion, if it had an air thermostat it's cooled mostly by air. If it had an oil thermostat it must be mostly cooled by oil. And if it had a water thermostat then it must be mostly cooled by water. Simply taking the flaps out and adding an oil thermostat on a Type 1 would be like taking the oil thermostat out of a 356 and adding flaps and an air thermostat. You'd be moving the thermostat function away from where it does it's job best.
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Flaps or No Flaps? |
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FWIW, Eric Allred removed the stock cooler (IE: NO OIL COOLER AT ALL) from his shroud on his 66 Type 2, and the oil temps stayed low unless he went over 55mph, then they climbed.
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Stripped66
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Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3470
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Flaps or No Flaps? |
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| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
Head temps are controlled by oil temp more that you would think.
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Its one thing to say that oil contributes to some amount of heat transfer from the cylinders and heads, but its incorrect to state that head temp is controlled by oil temp. Head temp is controlled by engine load, and cooling air speed (as a function of rpm). Having driven with a 4 channel CHT gauge (with the thermocouple within the aluminum quench pad of the chamber) and an oil temp gauge since 2010 clearly illustrates how uncoupled head temp and oil temp actually is.
That doesn't mean that you can't have high oil temps and high head temps simultaneously; you can. It means that high oil temps does not necessarily coincide with high head temps, and vice versa. I can start my engine and put 400f into my heads over the course of 1/4 mile and not raise the oil temp above 150f. I can run 260f oil temp while the heads run 320f. Oil temp has little control over head temp.
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| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Flaps or No Flaps? |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| FWIW, Eric Allred removed the stock cooler (IE: NO OIL COOLER AT ALL) from his shroud on his 66 Type 2, and the oil temps stayed low unless he went over 55mph, then they climbed. |
That's exactly what I'm talking about! If the oiling system were so important to cooling in a stock Type 1 then deleting the oil cooler would cause overheating quite quickly. Now in an engine with spray bars and piston squirters is s different story. That kind of an engine would merit a larger oil cooler. And since most of the cooling would be now fine by the oil it would make sense to put a thermostat on the oil cooler and not on the air flow.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Flaps or No Flaps? |
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| Stripped66 wrote: |
| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
Head temps are controlled by oil temp more that you would think.
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Its one thing to say that oil contributes to some amount of heat transfer from the cylinders and heads, but its incorrect to state that head temp is controlled by oil temp. Head temp is controlled by engine load, and cooling air speed (as a function of rpm). Having driven with a 4 channel CHT gauge (with the thermocouple within the aluminum quench pad of the chamber) and an oil temp gauge since 2010 clearly illustrates how uncoupled head temp and oil temp actually is.
That doesn't mean that you can't have high oil temps and high head temps simultaneously; you can. It means that high oil temps does not necessarily coincide with high head temps, and vice versa. I can start my engine and put 400f into my heads over the course of 1/4 mile and not raise the oil temp above 150f. I can run 260f oil temp while the heads run 320f. Oil temp has little control over head temp. |
100% agree.....
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dsrtfox
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Joined: August 25, 2009
Posts: 443
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Just where IS the oil thermostat on a 356. I've never seen one... |
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Dan Ruddock
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Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Flaps or No Flaps? |
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| Stripped66 wrote: |
| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
Head temps are controlled by oil temp more that you would think.
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Its one thing to say that oil contributes to some amount of heat transfer from the cylinders and heads, but its incorrect to state that head temp is controlled by oil temp. Head temp is controlled by engine load, and cooling air speed (as a function of rpm). Having driven with a 4 channel CHT gauge (with the thermocouple within the aluminum quench pad of the chamber) and an oil temp gauge since 2010 clearly illustrates how uncoupled head temp and oil temp actually is.
That doesn't mean that you can't have high oil temps and high head temps simultaneously; you can. It means that high oil temps does not necessarily coincide with high head temps, and vice versa. I can start my engine and put 400f into my heads over the course of 1/4 mile and not raise the oil temp above 150f. I can run 260f oil temp while the heads run 320f. Oil temp has little control over head temp. |
Never said oil temp controlls head temp. What I meant is the oil temp will have more effect on head temp than most realize. The 356 oiling system is about the same as the T1. There is more surface area inside the rocker box on a 356 but I have run both engines with the valve cover off and the amount splashing is about the same.
It is not fair to compare the 911 engine cooling system to the 356/VW engine (totaly different animals).
Dan |
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Stripped66
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Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3470
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Flaps or No Flaps? |
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| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
It is not fair to compare the 911 engintem to the 356/VW engine (totaly different animals).
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I'm not comparing the 911 engine to the Type 1 engine.
_________________
| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
Last edited by Stripped66 on Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Juanito84
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Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Flaps or No Flaps? |
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| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
Never said oil temp controlls head temp. What I meant is the oil temp will have more effect on head temp than most realize. The 356 oiling system is about the same as the T1. There is more surface area inside the rocker box on a 356 but I have run both engines with the valve cover off and the amount splashing is about the same.
It is not fair to compare the 911 engine cooling system to the 356/VW engine (totaly different animals).
Dan |
Agreed, oil affects head temps. But if the engine didn't come with an oil thermostat it's likely that the oil is not the major factor in cooling.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Dan Ruddock
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Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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Bruce
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Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| dsrtfox wrote: |
| Just where IS the oil thermostat on a 356. I've never seen one... |
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1745696
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