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58 Plastic Tub
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2007
Posts: 419
Location: Nowhere, USA
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 Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| 58 Plastic Tub wrote: |
Excellent.
The open mind of TheSamba collective. Never disappointing. |
What the mind doesn't understand it worships or fears . |
Exactly my point.
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Stan Galat
"A single point in isolation is a reference point. Two points is a line. Three points is a trend. Trends don't lie." |
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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spencerfvee
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 3071
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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stay tuned .for flaps the clown . as he installs his super flapper on his 3,000 cc vw motor .watch flaps the clown start his monster motor up and watch it over heat and burst into flames. because the super flapped did not open . because the thermostat stuck closed . watch flaps the clown cry as his motor goes up in smoke. as flaps is crying hes thinking to him self why did I put the super flapper on in the first place .lol lol spencerfvee .
| bluebus86 wrote: |
| whow..... seven pages of posts, what's the big flap about this? |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| spencerfvee wrote: |
stay tuned .for flaps the clown . as he installs his super flapper on his 3,000 cc vw motor .watch flaps the clown start his monster motor up and watch it over heat and burst into flames. because the super flapped did not open . because the thermostat stuck closed . watch flaps the clown cry as his motor goes up in smoke. as flaps is crying hes thinking to him self why did I put the super flapper on in the first place .lol lol spencerfvee .
| bluebus86 wrote: |
| whow..... seven pages of posts, what's the big flap about this? |
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Engines don't overheat because the thermostat sticks. They overheat because the driver fails to recognize that it's heating up more than usual. What's he going to do if his fan belt breaks or his distributor breaks an advance spring or his carb clogs a power jet and goes lean? Maybe we should throw away the throttle cable so that it won't ever get stuck and over rev.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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58Dub
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 1713
Location: Davison, MI
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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so.... flaps from a doghouse vs non doghouse.... are they different or the same? I know the linkage connecting them isnt the same, but are the flaps?
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58 Beetle (now just a pile of parts in the corner)
60 Beetle (2221 turbo under construction)
70 Beetle Baja project |
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dsrtfox
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2009
Posts: 443
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Dan,
I'm aware of the 58/59 3rd piece. The old guys told me they were problematic and discontinued. The thermostat that Bruce shows is to open flaps and warm up the carbs. The originality guys all have them, the rest of us not so much, especially down here in the southwest. When putting a 616 motor in a VW you trim that part of the rear pan away, VW's have a much smaller hole... |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| dsrtfox wrote: |
Dan,
I'm aware of the 58/59 3rd piece. The old guys told me they were problematic and discontinued. The thermostat that Bruce shows is to open flaps and warm up the carbs. The originality guys all have them, the rest of us not so much, especially down here in the southwest. When putting a 616 motor in a VW you trim that part of the rear pan away, VW's have a much smaller hole... |
Yea I remember seeing it but not what year they came with it. Thermostats have gotten better since the 50's.
I am now working on a high state of tune 1835 to test my beehive spring setup which I plan to temporarly install in my 356, should be fun getting sheet metal to fit. No I will not be putting flaps on it. I am thinking will be faster than my 1904 cc Porsche engine.
Dan |
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dsrtfox
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2009
Posts: 443
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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I think so too Dan. It's all in the heads...  |
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| dsrtfox wrote: |
| I think so too Dan. It's all in the heads... |
Yes true but you are so limited with the 356 on cam lift and rockers arms. If you grind a cam with some good lift then base circle has to be so small to keep from hitting the rod than the cam is real pointy and the wear is a problem (been there done that).
I had engle gring me up a W-125 and it lasted about 30k and that was it.
Dan |
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58Dub
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 1713
Location: Davison, MI
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| 58Dub wrote: |
| so.... flaps from a doghouse vs non doghouse.... are they different or the same? I know the linkage connecting them isnt the same, but are the flaps? |
anyone?? Bueller??
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58 Beetle (now just a pile of parts in the corner)
60 Beetle (2221 turbo under construction)
70 Beetle Baja project |
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Juanito84
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012
Posts: 2436
Location: Colorado Mountains
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| 58Dub wrote: |
| so.... flaps from a doghouse vs non doghouse.... are they different or the same? I know the linkage connecting them isnt the same, but are the flaps? |
I'm sure they're about the same and interchangeable, except the linkage of course. Some of the non-doghouse flaps have a cable control on them got the cable controlled air cleaners, but I don't think it'll be a problem.
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If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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58Dub
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 1713
Location: Davison, MI
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks!
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58 Beetle (now just a pile of parts in the corner)
60 Beetle (2221 turbo under construction)
70 Beetle Baja project |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12727
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Juanito84 wrote: |
| 58Dub wrote: |
| so.... flaps from a doghouse vs non doghouse.... are they different or the same? I know the linkage connecting them isnt the same, but are the flaps? |
I'm sure they're about the same and interchangeable, except the linkage of course. Some of the non-doghouse flaps have a cable control on them got the cable controlled air cleaners, but I don't think it'll be a problem. |
They are interchangeable except for the preheat cable arm on 68-70 models like 58Dub notes. They fit in either fan shroud, work with either linkage, and are starting to get more expensive at swap meets! 
Did you know the factory flaps have a bump stop to prop them open a tiny bit? The thermostat needs SOME kind of air over the cylinders to warm it enough to open.
Robbie
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17290
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
Did you know the factory flaps have a bump stop to prop them open a tiny bit? The thermostat needs SOME kind of air over the cylinders to warm it enough to open.
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You've got that rubber bumper installed the wrong way around.
There is plenty of air leakage past the flaps when they are fully closed to heat up the t'stat. They don't need to be held open like you have. In fact, I recommend removing that bumper. Then when they shut you can hear the clink sound. There's a certain traffic light I stop at sometimes just after getting off the freeway where I hear the clink. This tells me the flaps are working properly. I can understand why VW put the bumper in there. Without it, people would complain about a strange clinking sound.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Ghia Nut
Samba Member
Joined: December 23, 2003
Posts: 1565
Location: B'ham Alabama
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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degreased, painted, installed, wired them open.
interesting to see how engine runs with this.
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'59 typ1 rajay turbo
'72 Ghia rajay 1641 dual 36DRLAs, 1 3/8" SS merged header and fat boy
78" GL Vert with ej22t swap
This will likely change tomorrow to something else. |
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rrcade
Samba Member
Joined: May 29, 2010
Posts: 735
Location: WI 1962 Bug 2276
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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So, I'm one of those people that got scared into running flaps and stock tstat, now I'm second guessing it mainly because my engine has NO problem getting up to operating temp in a hurry.
I can see leaving the flaps in I guess and just wiring them open.
My Bug has a 2276 10.8:1 compression and NEVER sees Winter or Long road trips, expressway driving, etc. It's a toy not a means of transportation so what is the consensus for MY situation? Disconnect the tstat and wire the Flaps open? |
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talljordan
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2012
Posts: 967
Location: San Francisco, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| rrcade wrote: |
So, I'm one of those people that got scared into running flaps and stock tstat, now I'm second guessing it mainly because my engine has NO problem getting up to operating temp in a hurry.
I can see leaving the flaps in I guess and just wiring them open.
My Bug has a 2276 10.8:1 compression and NEVER sees Winter or Long road trips, expressway driving, etc. It's a toy not a means of transportation so what is the consensus for MY situation? Disconnect the tstat and wire the Flaps open? |
Your engine has no issue warming up quickly BECAUSE it has flaps.
Why would you possibly want to make your car warm up slower.... The only reason not to run flaps is laziness, and being cheap.
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64delux
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2007
Posts: 138
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| talljordan wrote: |
The only reason not to run flaps is laziness, and being cheap. |
GIDDY UP !!!! |
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58 Plastic Tub
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2007
Posts: 419
Location: Nowhere, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| talljordan wrote: |
| The only reason not to run flaps is laziness, and being cheap. |
Wow. That's a pretty big statement about motive. Are you clairvoyant?
I've got a couple of Type 1s. My 2110 in a bus that has all the flaps, thermostats, and what-nots. It would be "Gene Berg Approved", if it wasn't running 9:1.
I've also got a twin-plugged, dry-sumped, thermal-coated 2276 in a speedster replica. It's got a Raby DTM, 911 oil squirters, a pretty exotic oiling system, etc. It runs and FK8 and 10.5:1 on pump gas, and is defiantly not conventional in any sense.
Neither engine was inexpensive and both have pretty much all the goodies internally. Neither is garage art- I drive the speedster daily in the summer, and have driven it to the west coast and back (from Illinois) twice. Last fall was a 5000 mile trip in two weeks.
Both engines are nice, but the dry-sump, twin-plug engine has been an order of magnitude more expensive than the 2110- really crazy-money when I look back on it. I've never, ever compromised on anything with it. In hindsight, the amount of blood, sweat, and tears that have gone into it is astounding as well. The engine has been out every year since 2005 for some major upgrade/rethink. I've built and scrapped no less than 5 exhausts (not a 15 min muffler and tailpipe-- full, wrap-around, two muffler, electric muffler bypass exhausts). I've got an illness: you can call and ask my wife.
So... since you've plumbed the recesses of my heart for motive: what part of that is cheap and lazy?
I've wasted way too much time on this stupid thread, but it sticks in my craw that sites like this are generally populated with people who take a "one size fits all" approach to every single question presented.
On my "cheap-n-lazy" 2276, I monitor CHT on all 4 heads (temp compensated, sensors under the plugs). My CHTs are within 10*F of each other as the car warms up, and as I drive down the road. That's why I run a ridiculous looking, vastly overpriced $700 chunk of fiberglass for a shroud. It works, and works well.
As for warm-up: I put the car away in November, and don't get it out until May. I pre-lube with an Accusump. The engine runs ridiculous compression for a street motor. My CHT comes up within 5 minutes of idling on the driveway. How much more quickly would you like to see it warm up? 2 extra minutes in the drive is worth the 10*F temperature gradation (did you catch that part?) cylinder to cylinder I get with the (non-flap) DTM.
If you can do better, knock yourself out. I'm pretty happy with what I've got.
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"A single point in isolation is a reference point. Two points is a line. Three points is a trend. Trends don't lie." |
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Ghia Nut
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Joined: December 23, 2003
Posts: 1565
Location: B'ham Alabama
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| Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Plastic Tub, I will forever judge you and your non flapped engine, just how irresponsible that is, I cant believe it. You are not a true enthusiast. Ferdinand Porsche would be rolling in his mausoleum right now. The nerve of you people and your carelessness.
But in all seriousness I can see why you dont run flaps in a DTM setup. If it aint broke, dont fix it, but if you can prevent it from being broke, fix it. Sounds like the DTM system was not designed for flaps, and thats ok. Its a perfected system with thesting and its as Jake designed so no need to overthink or try to mess with it.
I think flaps were ze germans way of accounting for faster warm up and more even distribution of air, and thats it. To some, thats everything for their engine, to some casual enthusiast, meh so what, it doesnt prevent the engine from running. Most people do not care, I used to not care but do now as quite frankly anything I can do to make the engine last that much longer for the $15 I spent on the swap meet, thats a win win. I would not consider you to be the average casual enthusiast. You probably have a lot more individual and specialized demands for your vw based engines, I think thats pretty cool, does it work for every one, yes but to casual enthusiasts so what, they are probably more interested in the chrome centermount shroud or the stinger exhaust. Different strokes for different folks. I think you are in the 1% of enthusiasts thats needs have exceeded what the standard vw engine needs, you have completely changed how the system performs which will totally take out certain standards of parts, Im willing to make a wager a 010 would be a downgrade for your system, but others that would be a big step up in performance from their shitty chinese 009.
Just some thoughts.
_________________
'59 typ1 rajay turbo
'72 Ghia rajay 1641 dual 36DRLAs, 1 3/8" SS merged header and fat boy
78" GL Vert with ej22t swap
This will likely change tomorrow to something else. |
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