3m carbon on my 911 shroud?

[enliven]

Motor is being rebuilt so now is the time to do repairs on my shroud (fiberglass 911 on type1 sandrail motor). Thought about just re-do of the gel coat (i think that is what it was painted with) but then thought it would look cool with a carbon wrap on it and add some extra protection.
Im not sure about the long term durability and adhesion of the 3m di-noc on the shroud (even with the primer) - anyone have experience with this?

[Letterman7]

If you have an experienced installer, you'll be fine with the wrap. Engine compartment heat shouldn't affect it much.

[raygreenwood]

Yes.....heat will affect a wrap quite a lot.

During installation heat guns are used to make the vinyls of wrap materials flow and stretch and allow the low temp adhesive to flow into fine details of the part you are applying it to.

That heat is very low......like in the 150-180F range.

Vinyl starts shrinking due to outgassing the day its born....and heat accelerates that.

This is why underhood decals on autos typically use treated paper in the old days and modern polyolefins and polyesters with high temp adhesives.

There may be "some" wrap materials made for higher heat now.....but you will have to research it and the adhesive will still be an, issue.....and if they dont use vinyl they will not, wrap tight, detail. Ray

[Cali_Army_Guy]

Just hydrodip it. Hydrodip is heat resistant up to about 500*F

[mark tucker]

I agree with the armie from cali guy hydro-graphics is the way to go.

[Letterman7]

Sorry Ray, that's totally incorrect. I'm in the business, are you? Post heating wraps takes the wrap vinyl anywhere from 225° to 250° to have it "set". Service life ranges up to 250°. If the fan housing gets hotter than that, there are more issues than worrying about the vinyl.

Hydrodipping is certainly an option. It's not the dip that is heat resistant - it's the topcoat, which is typically an automotive clear.

[enliven]

Thanks for the info about the heat range - one thing I couldnt find info about.. and yes, if the shroud gets upwards of even 200deg I have much bigger issues than effects on the vinyl.

Id love to hydro but thats way out of the budget - not to mention that Im NOT going to ship my shroud anywhere (far too expensive and tedious to replace).


EDIT: found the specs - upper temp is 225f
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/680101O/3mtm-wrap-film-series-1080.pdf

[raygreenwood]

[Cali_Army_Guy]

[Letterman7]

Impressive credentials, Ray. I won't hog the OP's thread here with practical experience of 20 years applying just about every type of vinyl to motor vehicles and watching how they react over time. While a true "wrap" vinyl, engineered differently than a "sign" vinyl, might possibly have issues, I can't see either one failing in less than three years on an open rail engine.

[enliven]

[Cali_Army_Guy]

[raygreenwood]

Just to help out a bit...since it appears that some are contemplating wrapping of engine compartment components...and others are stating that its no problem...which it is...

some details:

There are many, many, many...wrap vinyls and decal materials out there (polyolefins, polypropylene's and even a few polycarbonates).

Virtually none of the true "wrap" materials available on the market have a temp rating for constant service over 225F....without separation of the adhesive from the vinyl...causing creep and tunneling usually in multiple axes (meaning shrinkage or memory of the vinyl does not happen in just one direction once you exceed service temp.

Heating to high temps during post application treatment is cursory surface heating only. Dont confuse heat flashing the vinyl with "through heating" that comes at service temperatures. You are only heating the surface for a few seconds...no the adhesive of the substrate metal underneath it.

This is to relieve stress that comes from the stretching of the vinyl. The vinyl stretches ...which is why the installer can WRAP it and why it called a WRAP.

These materials are NOT to be confused with high temperature vinyls used in large industrial, permanent (5-7 year) fleet markings like aircraft, trains and automotive...which are NOt stretchable and not wrap materials. They are die-cut, thermal die-cut and plotter cut...from CAD pattern...decals.....yes I used to work for one of the largest fleet decal mfgs in the world....and still deal with these products.

As I noted...many wrap and decal material manufacturers...but about the top three or four are:

3M
Avery
Flexcon
Oracal

So just some technical bits and pieces for those companies if you please

Best overall high temp wrap materials from these companies and there associated maximum SUSTAINED (which is important here) service temps:

3M: Their 1080 series is one of the benchmark wrap vinyls

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/680101O/3mtm-wrap-film-series-1080.pdf

Note that the max temperature after application of 225F ...not for extended usage...and I can attest to this after applying it to MANY trucks and having it too close to exhaust systems

Avery:

Their most common high temp wrap for a while is the 900 series

http://averygraphics-resources.com/PDFs/PD_Sheets/PDS_SW_900_Wrapping_FIlm.pdf

It has a max sustained of 180F

FlexCon:

FlexCon makes some great highly technical films. Many of them tend to be on the expensive side and less small companies use them. I am less familiar with their wrap materials....so i will give you an example of their true high temp...NON -WRAPPABLE vinyls. THESE would hold up fin in your engine compartment...but are not wrappable too curvy 3-D surfaces.

They are also not VINYLS...they are Polyimide (technically in the nylon family)
http://applications.flexcon.com/datasheet/example.aspx?id=4613

these are good to 750F intermittent..and about 400F constant

Some of their high temp wraps...very common for bus fleets: V-400
https://www.flexcon.com/Products-Solutions/Quick-Ship/Item.aspx?id=69

Click on the tech specs tab...about 175F is the limit. here is the overlaminate required
https://www.flexcon.com/Products-Solutions/Quick-Ship/Item.aspx?id=636

Oracal:

This is a fairly good vehicle wrap from Oracal, the 970RA.

http://www.uscutter.com/ORACAL-970RA-Wrapping-Cast-with-Rapid-Air-Technology-60in-Wide

Max sustained temp....230F

You will note that they only list "sustained" temps...because that all they can warrant for. They will not list a higher "peak" usage temp than the sustained temp....because only a few seconds too long at peak temp will separate the adhesive from the vinyl...causing bubbling, tunneling etc.

If you have experience that is different...and want too warrant (at replacement value)...someones underhood engine compartment wraps.....by all means...do it!

There will be a line outside the door of your shop...either waiting to give you business...or waiting to have their decal replaced.

There is a reason why when you search underhood engine parts wraps...you dont find anything.
Ray

[raygreenwood]

[Letterman7]

Mostly because there is nothing to "wrap" under most hoods. The only vinyl you mentioned, Ray, is Flexcon, that I hadn't heard of. I use 3M and Oracal almost exclusively. 99% of the sign vinyls I use have held up fine under high heat conditions for extended periods. Just ask any of my fire crews with badges on their helmets. Personally, I have a simple decal, ink-jet printed on 3MIJ380 with a laminate, in my own engine compartment of my 6.0 Chevy truck showing the routing of the belts. It's on top of the radiator shroud which isn't quite a low energy plastic, and has been there for 4 years. No peel, no fade.

Fiberglass.. you are applying to gelcoat, not the fiberglass. No issues.. plenty of boats and RV's done that way. Covering CF... never done it, but why?

Tell you what... I'll put both wrap vinyl and regular sign vinyl on my T4 covers in my car, take a photo, then revisit this in a year. I usually get out to a dozen shows and drive the car during the weekends throughout the year. Might be an interesting test to see what happens!

[mark tucker]

omg dont do that!!!! it might hold in 7-12 degrees of heat!!!! I do agree on a rail it should be fine.in closed car it may get hot as the engine if turned off when hot on a 100+ degree day. but I aint no vynel expert except for on my marantz turn table....that hasent been used in ............crap Im old.