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almo Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2011 Posts: 174 Location: In the back sleepin
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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:28 pm Post subject: Clutch acting wierd |
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Hey there
There is something weird going on with my clutch
So on Sunday was driving up hill changed down from 3rd to second it gave a crunch I didn't pass too much heed as it has always givin a wee crunch every now and then if its not warmed up or if I change too quick from 1st to 2nd and the rpm's aren't just right!
Anyways after that its was fine for a few more shifts and then it started to act funny.
It started getting harder and harder to change from any gear. Eventually after I came to a complete stop and tried to go into first it would not go into gear. I had to turn the engine off put it in gear start it up again and let the clutch out to take off. Once rolling I could change gears but not very easily.
I was sure the master or slave cylinder was gone but after investigation i see no fluid anywhere on the system, reservoir is also full.
When you push the clutch you can see the slave piston move so seems to be working fine.
The van is drivable but I have to put the clutch wayyy in to the very bottom to be able to change gear!
Any ideas an whats going on?? _________________ San Francisco/Mayo Ireland
1986 2.1L Westy 2wd 4-spd Sold!!!!
1987 2.1L Westy syncro
2005 Subaru legacy 2.5Gt Wagon 5sp MT |
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jismay Samba Member
Joined: February 02, 2010 Posts: 219 Location: Norco, CA
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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Any new noises that could be indicative of a throwout bearing problem?
Failing that, the most likely problem is a failed seal in either the master or slave. Quite possible to have a failing cylinder yet no leakage.
If you don't know the service history on the clutch hydraulics then I would bet highly on replacing the master/slave.
I just recently replaced a failing master/slave on my jeep. After a quick test drive all seemed fine, but the next day the wife informed me that the clutch was fubar. When I pulled the repalcement for RMA there was no missing fluid and no leakage, just a non-working cylinder. _________________ 1970 Squareback with 1915cc dual 40idf
1979 Beetle Convertible
1980 Vanagon Westfalia
1989 VW Cabriolet |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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Hydraulically speaking, the master can fail without leaking. The slave cannot. If the problem is hydraulic (and most likely it is), if the slave is not leaking, the master has failed. Despite what many folks say, the service life of the master and the slave are not related. Changing one and not the other will not in any way cause the unchanged one to fail. |
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61Scout Samba Member
Joined: November 06, 2011 Posts: 1297 Location: Shoreline/Yakima WA
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Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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^ Agree. It sounds to me like your master cylinder is bypassing internally. If questionable or long-in-the-tooth, it would be a good idea to replace/rebuild anyway. Cross it off the list as a potential problem.
I'd also take a look at the pedal itself to make sure it didn't oval out around the pin.
OP, I see you have a 5MT conversion. Is this the van you're having an issue with? Did you purchase a kit from Dave Clymer? Or did you sort out the shifter on your own? I know there are/were people attempting to copy his work, but part of this is figuring out the clutch slave. If the relationship between the master and slave aren't calculated correctly, this could cause an issue. If you have one of his kits then you're golden. And assuming the slave is relatively new, then I'd be looking elsewhere.
Beyond the hydraulics and the pedal, trouble shifting into gear could be the input dragging on the pilot, a clutch disk not sliding on the shaft smoothly, bad pressure plate, an internal transmission failure, and so on. What's this 'crunch' noise sounds like?
-Kevin _________________ 1986 Westfalia Weekender Wolfsburg, RJE 2.3
1985 Tin Top, Subie 2.2 + 5MT
Floppy Mirrors no more: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=653018&highlight=
Remove the front spindle nut with ease: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679567&highlight=
Remove the rear wheel bearing housing without messing with the big 46mm nut: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=679507&highlight=
-Nec Spe, Nec Metu |
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Ahwahnee Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010 Posts: 9776 Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:15 am Post subject: |
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The first thing I would do (and do do) when there is shifting weirdness is bleed the system.
They do need to be bled from time to time.
If the problem persists then my next suspect is the master cylinder (the little seal, not the big seal which would leak if it failed). Sometimes this can be detected by observing the fluid level in the reservoir as you depress the pedal though this may be hard to see as your description sounds like just a slight, partial failure. |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:00 am Post subject: |
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I've been having a similar issue. I bled the clutch
before posting about the issue. This may have helped stave off a master or slave replacement.
If time permits, would suggest the OP use a small wire brush to remove dirt, mung, from bleeder screw and apply good quality penetrating fluid to screw days before attempting to bleed the clutch.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50255
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Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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If your clutch feels normal, I would guess that you have a failed clutch disc or a failed pilot bearing. If the clutch doesn't feel normal then you may have a lining failure, a hydraulic failure, or a clutch release shaft failure. |
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almo Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2011 Posts: 174 Location: In the back sleepin
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks folks for all the responses.
So no new noises or anything like that, I'm gonna try a bleed ill also be ordering a master and slave want to have them on hand.
Here's a Vid of the movement of the Slave:
https://youtu.be/PtrFHfxnrcU
I now realize the master can fail without leaking so it could be that. If the bleed doesn't work I will put in the new MC.
My van is has a stock transmission. That 5MT listed is our other car/rocket.
I will post results.
Cheers _________________ San Francisco/Mayo Ireland
1986 2.1L Westy 2wd 4-spd Sold!!!!
1987 2.1L Westy syncro
2005 Subaru legacy 2.5Gt Wagon 5sp MT |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:06 am Post subject: |
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That amount of travel looks similar to what
I saw on my '88 clutch operating lever but I wonder if that amount of travel may change as engine heats up and/or as the hydraulics get used (repeated normal clutch use). In my case I may be dealing with 2 issues; pressure plate sticking to input shaft, intermittent clutch hydraulics.
Neil. _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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almo Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2011 Posts: 174 Location: In the back sleepin
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Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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Soooo
Finally got back to this. Findings to note/Update:
- Did a bleed with a mityvac it's a little better! I can shift into 1st in idle and drive the van reasonable well.
- I checked the arm/fork thing at the Gearbox, even when clutch is released I it doesn't return the fork all the way. I can push it up another 1" or so. Don't think this is right? was reading about it in Ben's place. http://www.benplace.com/vw_clutch.htm
- So the clutch bites really close to the floor, as soon as you start to let it up it bites and takes off.
- Next thing was I was wondering if the clevis and pin is worn? so I took a video: http://youtu.be/wWFeInvxQTg
seems pretty worn to me but I'm not sure? How bad a state is mine in would you say?? What do the experts think? Pull the dash and get a new one kinda bad? 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
What's my next move? I have new master and slave cylinders on hand but haven't changed them just yet. I kinda wanted to get a more accurate diagnoses before I start pulling parts.
Cheers _________________ San Francisco/Mayo Ireland
1986 2.1L Westy 2wd 4-spd Sold!!!!
1987 2.1L Westy syncro
2005 Subaru legacy 2.5Gt Wagon 5sp MT |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50255
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:07 am Post subject: |
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The clutch is self adjusting, so once the system is properly bled it should work correctly. It is normal for you to be able to force the arm back further until you bottom out the cylinder, but this should take a slow steady push. If it is spongy then you still have air in the system. |
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almo Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2011 Posts: 174 Location: In the back sleepin
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Ok sounds good. I'll give the bleeding another go.
Is the mityvac the right tool. I bled it a few times with the vac. Is air really hard to get out? Is the 2 person pump pedal a better method?
Cheers _________________ San Francisco/Mayo Ireland
1986 2.1L Westy 2wd 4-spd Sold!!!!
1987 2.1L Westy syncro
2005 Subaru legacy 2.5Gt Wagon 5sp MT |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50255
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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Some people seem to have problems getting the clutch to bleed. Maybe get the butt up in the air a bit to see if that helps.
I have has cylinders that would such in air passed the seal when the pedal was released, or at least that is what i though was happening. |
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