HEBMÜLLER VW 14-000012 Interesting Body Stamping ?

[Hacksaw-BoB]

Peter Schepens wrote:

Heb nr 12.. hmm BoB, I wonder if it is realy heb nr 12. Why. In a book on VW from a certain Collin,
there is an aufbau plate pict with Maurey Coley's car. The strange thing is , if this is indeed from car 12...
is made 30th of march 1949. ... and The body nr is 118-000012. Under the se. cond 1 in front is a 4,
the 8 is partial over the - mark and the 2 at the end is added... Heb nrs are 14-00xxx, not 14-000xxx.
I need to check that car or get some detailed picts of the body...
The engine cover shows pressed corners like the first Proto.... Hmmm... think about that. Idea

Hi Peter,

I looked for a photo and found what you are talking about !!

Very strange about that HEBMÜLLER VW 14-000012 number ???

I know that Maurey Cole was a professional VW body repair man working at Chick Iverson's VW & Porsche
dealership in Newport Beach, Ca for many years.

It would take a person with his talent, and his own time & work, to restore a HEBMÜLLER VW in the bad of condition
it was in when he acquired it.

Perhaps there was some special work done in that area of the sheet metal and serial numbers ? ? ?

It does look like both ID Plates were removed and placed back on with pop-rivets.

The other HEBMÜLLER VWs below 14-xxxx12 . . . . what do their stampings look like ???

_________________
Hacksaw BoB

http://www.VintageVolkswagenModels.com

Collector of Vintage VW Toys

BoB's Restor-Version Shop

[usariemen]

From what it looks like and from the "Aufbau" date,
It makes the most sense to think this was Heb no. 14-00001
and some stamps where added.
_________________
Master of my domain!

[Hacksaw-BoB]

Now looking at an original Hebmuller body stamping, I think the numbers on Hebmuller 14-000012 were fabricated.

Especially those are not the German number 1 or number 2 that was used on the original body stamping.

Also, look at the number 1 and number 2 on the AUFBAU Plate !!

_________________
Hacksaw BoB

http://www.VintageVolkswagenModels.com

Collector of Vintage VW Toys

BoB's Restor-Version Shop

[kdf38]

The Aufbauschild has an A appended and looks overstruck also.

Is that a 191 xx under the 181 xx?

What would the A mean?

Mike

[Hacksaw-BoB]

Thinking way back to the 1970s, I know exactly what happen with the serial number on Hebmüller 14-00012.
When both the Hebmüllers 14-00012 and 14-00013 were found for sale back in March 1972, there were easily
identified as those Hebmüller numbers back then because the numbers were still readable. Hebmüller 14-00012
was in the worse condition of the two, a rust bucket with major rust and corrosion.

When Maurey Cole acquired Hebmüller 14-00012 in the late 1970s, I went up to see him in Costa Mesa, CA
and saw the Hebmüller in his garage. Because of the bad condition the car, it would require a reconstruction
rather than a restoration. Since Maurey was a professional VW body repair man working years at Chick Iverson
VW - Porsche dealership, he would be able to save, with his own time and labor, and bring back the life into
Hebmüller 14-00012 and all this would become a labor of love for about 5 years. I saw the Hebmüller a couple of
times during the process and was always amazed at Maurey's work. I know the front clip area of the Hebmüller
was really rusted out and I know Maurey most likely had to replace the section that had the original Hebmüller
14-00012 number and I believed that Maurey reworked the area and fabricated the numbers that are now seen on the car.

There is no doubt, what so ever, in my mind that this Hebmüller is in deed the original Hebmüller 14-00012.

_________________
Hacksaw BoB

http://www.VintageVolkswagenModels.com

Collector of Vintage VW Toys

BoB's Restor-Version Shop

[usariemen]

That´s the way it looks.

If you remove the probably added stuff it looks like that.

That way it would fit in the row.

The date on the Aufbau plate would support the nr. 1 theorie.

The very first ones had this strange metal edge at the front tip of the roof.

And still the front looks a bit differend to others.

_________________
Master of my domain!

[whitewalls]

The picture in the book is originally blue. It always seemed so different to me than the brown paint of the car. Could be a reflection. But what about it being a part of Hebmüller Type 18A police car? Why should someone remanufacture a number but overwrite it with another one like a papyrus? Just ideas. Anyway it would be great if it was Heb Nr. 1.

[Hacksaw-BoB]

Ok . . . . All You experts in the Hebmuller field and I sincerely apologize for my blatant assumptions
and lack of knowledge as an old Guy.

Did you even read this thread and what I said ? ? ?

First I said the numbers used on Hebmuller 14-000012 ID area we not the normal German numbers
of 1 and 2 used at the time.

Then I said that Hebmuller 14-00012 was identified as 14-00012 in Mar 1972 when is was sold
because the 14-00012 was still readable.

Then I said that Hebmuller 14-00012 was a reconstruction rather that a restoration and that the
14-00012 original area was changed and the numbers were fabricated.

And I do believe that Hebmuller 14-00012 is original, ID area fabricated and so be it.

You obviously have all the answers without thinking over all the facts that I have presented !!

I really give up this time on my Hebmuller knowledge and I am out of here !!

And my last comment is that I think you experts are all right and actually what you say is that
the Hebmuller 14-00012 should is : : : :

You Experts Go Figure . . . See Ya !!!!!

_________________
Hacksaw BoB

http://www.VintageVolkswagenModels.com

Collector of Vintage VW Toys

BoB's Restor-Version Shop

[peter schepens]

hey Bob, I never said IT was heb nr 1 but I think it is heb nr 1

You have absolute right about the type of stamps they used on heb 12.
The #4 is open on top on original cars. The #1 does not have a flat piece below of it. The nrs on the aufbau plate are not the same as later plates. Oldest known on type 14 is car nr 5, on type 18 is the police heb from the museum and dates 1st of april 49.
It is for sure a restamped number. I agree. But what if the original stamp was already like that and Maurey Cole copied it ? Just think of that.

It was probably a bad car as you have seen it in the days before resto. I agree and the front was changed.
But where did he got that aufbauplate from : Repro in those days ? Maybe
Blank Original one? Maybe. I know someone who have one

Where did he got the date code from? A police car is possible but the oldest one know is from 1 april. There is no type 14 with such an old date code. The proto's had probably not such a plate.

What I do know is that the corners on the engine cover are only seen on the black car that Carsten Posted ( usariemen) that is probably nr 1 or 2 and on the car for the geneva autoshow that was seen in Bad Camberg in red primer.

Another fact I know is that the versuchswagen nr 2 in hands of Gottfried Schultz for testing became later the registration as Hebmuller 14-00001. That is the one with the normal windscreen. THis car was described in the written test files to VW as versuchwagen 02 with the vin. That same VIN of that car became later registrated with the aufbau 14-00001 as this is written in the wagenbegeleitkarte on wich I have a copy. ( and that also for Heb nr 2,3 and 4 but I am however not allowed to post picts of it. )

If it is realy car nr 12, then Maurey Cole screwed up the nrs... The vin sure fits the car. ( but even that is unsure because smalle vins are known with higher body nrs..

If it is car nr 1....then he made a mistake to sell it

I wonder if there are picts left from the time of resto ore before that besides the one Bob posted.

Let us hope that someday the car can be for sure identified.
_________________
Zelensis, glassfibre body made in Belgium , disigned and built on a VW platform About 25 body's built.
Hebmuller info wanted for http://www.hebmueller-registry.com/home.html

[usariemen]

If the nr.12 was readable and still there in the 70s.
Why would you throw away this area and redo it in such a weird looking way?
However, it is clear that the stamping got messed up in some way.
It will not have looked like that from the start.

If the car even has those numberplate area corner pressings,
it is more likely number one than number twelve.
As all cars we know of up from number five do not have them.

_________________
Master of my domain!

[56reddy]

[whitewalls]

Invited by the disscusion opened by this thread I continue my brainstorming. I douted years ago that the picture of the Heb in question and the picture of numbers in question belong to the same car because colors are so different. Here is the book excerpt:

(By the way, Bob's 49 on the left has an ashtray which is a 1950 feature. No offense!)

The VIN in the pic above is not the VIN which is registered with Heb No. 12 as it doesn't contain a 9. Usually the first section should contain a 10/14 not only 14. I agree with everything beeing remanufactured but than it could be a picture of whatever car with remanufactured numbers. Any proof of how the front section of the car really looks like?

For sure, someone who was present at the meeting could verify it easily!

As the body number seems to be welded in, it could be based on an original one with of an easily available donor car in the 1970s. So probably the 8 could be real if 1,2 and 4 are not.

But thinking of used car market in the 1970s it is possible that the numbers where replaced by someone who didn't care about history but the big deal, such as Heb 12 + 13 together. Maybe it was read as Nr. 12 in that time but real identification can be done with today's knowledge.

Sincerly, no offense to anyone!

[EmpiGT]

the bottom one in this pic seem to be faked as well
There's also hebs in the registry that are so obvious fakes I can't believe they are on there (Edit) I just went to look art the registry to see if I could load the pics of the fakes and the registry is all different than the last time I looked at it. and the pics of the fakes seem to be gone and only about a 3rd of the cars registered have pics included.

[usariemen]

[Hacksaw-BoB]

Here is a photo of HEBMÜLLER 14-00013 (ITSA VW) and 14-00012 at a Bug-In in California around Circa 1976-77.
HEBMÜLLER 14-00012 is on a trailer in front of HEBMÜLLER 12-00013. HEBMÜLLER 14-00258 was also in attendance
but further down the Vintage VW line up. HEBMÜLLER 14-00012 was on display and even has the front hood off
for close inspection. At the time, it was easily seen as a reconstruction versus a restoration because of the rusty
condition of the car. So all the Vintage VW enthusiasts who looked over HEBMÜLLER 14-00012 at the show, especially
in the front section where the ID number is . . . .

They never said: "hey . . . . this is not HEBMÜLLER 14-00012" because there was no ID number to be seen!

They never said " hey . . . . this is HEBMÜLLER 14-00001" or any other number because it was indeed HEBMÜLLER 14-00012.

Maurey Cole (RIP) did a great job in bringing back the life in HEBMÜLLER 14-00012 and unfortunately, reworked the rusty
original front section and fabricated the ID number and did a bad job doing it.

There is no doubt, what so ever, in my mind that this HEBMÜLLER is in deed the original HEBMÜLLER 14-00012.

_________________
Hacksaw BoB

http://www.VintageVolkswagenModels.com

Collector of Vintage VW Toys

BoB's Restor-Version Shop

[kdf38]

I hear/understand what you're saying.
If someone looked at the number back then and saw 1148, it would be something they would likely remember...

But, if the pic in,the book is actually how the numbers are in the car,
the story of how it got that way would be interesting/ good to know.

WHY are the zeros double struck when they didn't need to be???
Was there that much bounce when they were struck?

I don't think it was 14-0001 to begin with, I think 18-000 was struck first...
Maybe Maurey just accidentally used the 8 first instead of the 4 and had to
"fix" it.

Will someone eventually post a pic of 012s number as it was on the trailer?
That would be great.

Mike

[peter schepens]

The search goes on ...
Does anyone that seen Heb nr 12 in the 70s remember the real outside color on the car?
It is obvious that the nr is restamped. I am convinced that Bob is the man who has seen the nr on the car before resto and it is Heb nr 12. For the moment I know that there is the black car with pressed corners in the engine cover, a black and white car with pressed corners in the engine cover and the Geneva autoshow car had pressed corners. It is possible that Heb nr 12 had them also. We know in the registry research that the cars are built random... That means, with Heb 10 for example is not built after 9 but possible after nr 11. There is no way to calculate a heb nr out of chassis nrs, frame nrs, aufbau nrs or any other nr found on a heb. THe only way to find out the nrs are the wagenbegeleitkarten that are kept in the archive at VW. The only problem is ... they are not accesible any more due to a change in the directory at vw.

Like I wrote, The search goes on...
_________________
Zelensis, glassfibre body made in Belgium , disigned and built on a VW platform About 25 body's built.
Hebmuller info wanted for http://www.hebmueller-registry.com/home.html