Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Big Sur trip & Hard start when left hot
Forum Index -> Thing/Type 181 Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
sam_w
Samba Member


Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 1479
Location: Petaluma, CA
sam_w is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:38 am    Post subject: Big Sur trip & Hard start when left hot Reply with quote

My Thingster has a minor problem. If I have been driving for a while and everything is up to temperature. it is difficult to start.
If I leave it for a few hours it starts right away on the first turn.

I initially thought an electric fuel pump, maybe the gas had evaporated out of my twin Weber 40's, but that can't be right or it would not start easily a few hours later.

The other thought is a coil, but when it starts it runs great.

How do I check the coil , or do I just put in a new one?

PS Coming back from camping at Big Sur last weekend through King City, where it was 112.3 F, my oil went up to 240 F so I slowed down to 60 in the 70 limit part of US 101, it then can down to under 220 F.
I guess that driving in the heat with a bikini top is not great for people and Things.
_________________
63 singlecab
73 thingster
74 Thing


Last edited by sam_w on Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Semper_Dad
Samba Member


Joined: May 14, 2005
Posts: 3506
Location: Indiana
Semper_Dad is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most likely the coil. As the coil gets hotter, the windings expand and possibly develop "opens". As things cool down, windings reconnect.
_________________
Walküre Restoration Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=737492
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sam_w
Samba Member


Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 1479
Location: Petaluma, CA
sam_w is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will get a new coil, but once it starts it runs really well, so does the hot coil work well when the engine is running?
_________________
63 singlecab
73 thingster
74 Thing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sam_w
Samba Member


Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 1479
Location: Petaluma, CA
sam_w is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We had a great time with our little San Jose VW group, the group campground at Plaskett Creek campground was booked a year in advance,
Solomon Grundy & I drove up to the ridge behind the campground and had a great view, I was happy with the bumpy ride.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
63 singlecab
73 thingster
74 Thing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Metal Twister
Samba Member


Joined: January 24, 2013
Posts: 405
Location: licking, MO.
Metal Twister is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nice! love Big Sur and its windy days. Back in the Air Force days I got to visit there often.
_________________
Change is Opportunity!
Instagram=metaltwister
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
germanbilly
Samba Member


Joined: October 18, 2013
Posts: 377
Location: Victorville
germanbilly is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like a lot of fun have spent a lot of time in Big Sur. My best memory was when we rode our bicycles from San Fran to LA we camped over night just below the long grade from the camp ground. that was a fun first thing to do in the morning.
GB
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Schwankster
Samba Member


Joined: January 07, 2011
Posts: 65
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Schwankster is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My Thing has the same issue. I've got the stock engine, carb, distributor, & coil. It will start almost the instant the key is turned when it is cold (after I first pump the gas pedal three times), but when it is hot from driving for a while it is more of a challenge to start. It usually happens after I have stopped for 10-20 minutes or more. If I just shut it off, run into a store and come back out within a few minutes it'll start right up. If I shut it off for a little while (lunch, shopping, etc) it doesn't want to start with just a quick turn of the key.

I found that when I crank it (when hot) and it doesn't start in a second or two, I put the gas pedal to the floor and keep cranking. It will usually start in another few seconds when I do that. As soon as the engine starts I let off of the gas pedal and everything is fine. It has been doing that since I bought it a few years ago, and it took me a while to figure out what worked to get it to start when it is hot.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
germanbilly
Samba Member


Joined: October 18, 2013
Posts: 377
Location: Victorville
germanbilly is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have found that here in the High Desert of CA that most of the time it is vapor locking. The fuel boils out of the carb. I have an electric fuel pump on my 74 and when it is hot I just turn the ignition on and let the pump run for a couple of seconds and the car starts right up but not as fast as when it is cold. One trick we used many years ago was to put wooden cloths pins on the metal line that comes through the back of the engine about 3 were used and it stopped the vapor locking problem. It works as I saw many VWs cured when I used to work in a VW only shop. I have a rubber line coming through the back on my 74. My 73 has no problem when it is hot but has a complete new fuel system from tank to carb.
GB
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
doublecanister
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2008
Posts: 1184
Location: Richmond, Va
doublecanister is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:50 am    Post subject: same problem here with hot re-start Reply with quote

Hi Sam, (and the rest)

I too have this problem, even with a replacement carb, on long runs,
cut engine off, let it sit for 10m to 3hrs, you have to floor it to start.
if it sits overnight, starts without touching the gas pedal.

One of our "Thing Brothers" from West Va was disscussing this same issue with me at Kubeltrefen in Ohio a few weeks back,

he mentioned (having his carb worked on I belive) but the carb's float setting (needing to be set with shimmed washers), that an old vw guy he knows pulled his carb and distributor apart and cleaned readjusted/assembled them and it fixed his problem.

But it sounded like this "hot start issue" leaned more toward being related to the carb/float shim setting.

i've also heard the heat riser tubes for heating the carb can get stopped up and can cause similar issues (but more like icing while running).

I have no personal experience with this shim adjustment for the float in the carb. (other than this show discussion)

Anyone know/heard bout that one?

sure seems to be a common problem and one I'd love to fix myself!

T
_________________
****************************************
2020 - Mustang Eco Boost [High Performance]
1973 - Thing
1966 - Mustang GT- Fastback
1951 - Ford F1 pickup Flathead V8
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sam_w
Samba Member


Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 1479
Location: Petaluma, CA
sam_w is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have gotten a new Bosch high energy ignition coil, to install, and will try the clothes pins on the fuel line.

After that I will try an electric fuel pump, I have been recommended the CBPerformance one. Any comments?
I think I will leave the current coil in place and add the second coil as I have seen in some off-road vehicles.
_________________
63 singlecab
73 thingster
74 Thing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
apba12m
Samba Member


Joined: November 08, 2011
Posts: 76
Location: michigan
apba12m is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also had this problem right after I bought the thing. I replaced the coil, carb, plugs, e.c.t. nothing fixed it.. pulled the motor and found the cooling fins on the heads plugged with dried mud and bottom tins missing. replaced the pistons and cylinders and rebuilt the motor. the motor now runs like a watch and starts all the time no problem..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Solomon Grundy
Samba Member


Joined: December 26, 2004
Posts: 746
Location: Silicon Valley
Solomon Grundy is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More great pix.
Glad I remembered to bring my pre-filters this year.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
- Dr. Seuss
VW 181 Archive: https://sites.google.com/site/jeffgilleland/vw_archive
| _______
| |_______| '73 Thing "481"
| _\_\_|_/_/_
| |O||_4_||O|
| [ ]=====[ ]
http://vwthingregistry.com
https://doublecabshaka.wordpress.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Gallery Classifieds Feedback
doublecanister
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2008
Posts: 1184
Location: Richmond, Va
doublecanister is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 7:31 am    Post subject: nice Reply with quote

Nice photos! I bet that was a nice drive.


also, this talk about the hard "hot start" issue got me digging again.

Rob and Dave' Vw page has a bunch of stuff on there about this issue, but it sounds like it can be a multitude of issues.

2 articles grabbed me at first:
Solving overheating problems
and
Vapor lock
(my search link below)

http://www.vw-resource.com/vw-resource.com_non_ssl...oom_sort=0

The things that grabbed my attention reading the articles was:
ethanol fuel and it's tend to cause a lean running issue, which causes excess heat, they mentioned changing the jetting to help fix this(on pict 30/32 and pict 34 carbs)
and
for engines with 1 carb the heat risers being too hot and essentially boiling out the gas from the carb.

I learned about hot heat risers, I watched a buddy of mine say hmm, what's this pipe here for and proceeded to touch it when hot and promptly removed his fingerprints from his finger! Ouch!! d'oh!

In my case after a 30m+ drive, my THING may not start with 1 turn of the key like she usually does when cool, I have to floor it, crank it and watch a plume of smoke roll out.

I've noticed upon getting home after a drive if I pop the hood, let it sit for 30+ min, it usually starts right up to go in the garage.

Question Question, if finding the exact culprit causing this hot start issue proves to be a challenge,
any thoughts on a electric fan of some sort to either blow in cool air or blow out heat from the engine bay?

reason I mentioned that is in my "tests" of the redneck air conditioner using a cooler, I bought a "bilge pump fan" from wal mart of all places, it's a 125cfm fan 12v for hooking into 3inch tubing for air flow for boat bilges, I've also read of some hot rod guys using them for carb cooling for this very issue.

Thoughts/ suggestions anyone?

my thoughts (for my THING) is this,
possible heat risers are too hot
carb jetting too lean
engine rubber seal does have a few bad spots but I wouldn't think they are bad enough to cause this issue.
rebuilt volkzbitz pict 34 carb, single vac can dizzy (new)
Timing off (could be too advanced?)

other than this hard start issue when hot it seems to run fine.

Although from Kubeltreffen it also seems I have the SLOWEST thing in the bunch, ALL you guys left me in the dust! Laughing

Anywho, thanks for the photos guys very nice and this is a good discussion about hot starts!
T

PS: More digging on Rob and Dave's vw page, on rebuilding the pict 34 carb, I bet this is what the fellow at Kubeltreffen was trying to explain...

http://vw-resource.com/carb_41.html


The proper float valve washer must be used for the specific type of carburetor. The 34 PICT/3 carburetor uses the 0.5 mm (.020") gasket. A micrometer helps to make the distinction.

Note: It is very important that you install the correct needle seat gasket. This gasket sets the fuel height in the float bowl; erratic behavior may result if the gasket is not correct.
_________________
****************************************
2020 - Mustang Eco Boost [High Performance]
1973 - Thing
1966 - Mustang GT- Fastback
1951 - Ford F1 pickup Flathead V8
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sam_w
Samba Member


Joined: March 07, 2002
Posts: 1479
Location: Petaluma, CA
sam_w is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice post Doublecannister,
I unfortunately have a 2054cc motor with Weber 40's, so the heat riser is not an issue.

BTW driving up the dirt road hill with greater than 10% grade in first, I just went perfectly in first gear between 2000 AND 4000 rpm. I am really happy with my torquey stroker motor.

I don't think the fuel can have evaporated out of the carbs or it wouldn't start first turn next morning.

I am doing 2 things before my next trip,
1) add new Bosch High Energy coil
2) add clothes pins to the fuel line ( I don't know why this is meant to work, but I have read about it.

I hope to to the trip to KTE again, maybe 2016.
_________________
63 singlecab
73 thingster
74 Thing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
doublecanister
Samba Member


Joined: September 23, 2008
Posts: 1184
Location: Richmond, Va
doublecanister is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sam_w wrote:
Nice post Doublecannister,
I unfortunately have a 2054cc motor with Weber 40's, so the heat riser is not an issue.

BTW driving up the dirt road hill with greater than 10% grade in first, I just went perfectly in first gear between 2000 AND 4000 rpm. I am really happy with my torquey stroker motor.

I don't think the fuel can have evaporated out of the carbs or it wouldn't start first turn next morning.

I am doing 2 things before my next trip,
1) add new Bosch High Energy coil
2) add clothes pins to the fuel line ( I don't know why this is meant to work, but I have read about it.

I hope to to the trip to KTE again, maybe 2016.


Hey Sam,

Yeah you are way different from a stock setup, but figured something may jar a memory or a suggestion from someone.
This seems to be a common issue among the threads I've read for the ones that have the problem, it's been a laundry list of items that can cause or fix it.

sorry you didn't make KTE this year, I was NOT feeling my best at this event, I had been 2 days severely ill prior to going, had a stomach bug or something, came within hours of deciding go-no go. To dern close to call but even feeling like crap I enjoyed seeing old friends and meeting some of our samba buds!

maybe we'll catch ya next time Sam, good luck in your quest to fix this issue.
If I have any luck with mine I'll post if it'd help.

T
_________________
****************************************
2020 - Mustang Eco Boost [High Performance]
1973 - Thing
1966 - Mustang GT- Fastback
1951 - Ford F1 pickup Flathead V8
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bigbussur
Samba Member


Joined: January 02, 2007
Posts: 122
Location: Santa Barbara CA
bigbussur is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember I had the hard start issue on both of my buses and I ended up wiring in one of the hot start relays into the starter. Never had the issue again. Lot of heat is built up around those starters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
carsdlt
Samba Member


Joined: May 02, 2012
Posts: 317
Location: So. OC, Calif.
carsdlt is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "clothes-pin" trick has been around for years. The wooden pins absorb heat from the metal fuel line to prevent hot spots that cause the fuel to boil, turning it to "vapor" that "locks" the fuel in the line so it can't flow to the carb.
_________________
Thanx, DLT
'73 181 stock 1600 - "Dr. Bombay"

"If it works, don't fix it....let it break on its own."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Classifieds Feedback
carsdlt
Samba Member


Joined: May 02, 2012
Posts: 317
Location: So. OC, Calif.
carsdlt is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "clothes-pin" trick has been around for years. The wooden pins absorb heat from the metal fuel line to prevent hot spots that cause the fuel to boil, turning it to "vapor" that "locks" the fuel in the line so it can't flow to the carb.
_________________
Thanx, DLT
'73 181 stock 1600 - "Dr. Bombay"

"If it works, don't fix it....let it break on its own."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Classifieds Feedback
carsdlt
Samba Member


Joined: May 02, 2012
Posts: 317
Location: So. OC, Calif.
carsdlt is offline 

PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The "clothes-pin" trick has been around for years. The wooden pins absorb heat from the metal fuel line to prevent hot spots that cause the fuel to boil, turning it to "vapor" that "locks" the fuel in the line so it can't flow to the carb.
_________________
Thanx, DLT
'73 181 stock 1600 - "Dr. Bombay"

"If it works, don't fix it....let it break on its own."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Thing/Type 181 All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.