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Sandjunky
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2015
Posts: 292
Location: New Mexico
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 Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:07 pm Post subject: How stiff are you? |
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| This Chenowth I picked up has a stock IRS suspension and it seems very stiff. The limiting straps are completely tight as it sits. I haven't driven it since it was in pretty bad shape when I got it, but I can imagine it rides pretty rough. If I keep it I plan on buying 930 joints and 3x3 trailing arms. For now I need to tear the rear down for cleanup and paint anyway so I wondering if I need to set it up differently when I reassemble it. What is the standard? Thanks. |
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Aerindel
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 459
Location: Western Montana
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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In my uneducated opinion I think the ideal suspension for a rail is with the suspension very nearly at its lower limit but with no actual strain against it. This way you have the maximum amount of upward travel with the minimum amount of spring resistance.
This is for the rear of course. For the front I think the stock setup is fine. The suspension will be maxed out but will not feel stiff because of how light the body is in the front.
_________________
Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2015 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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While it's popular among the midwest sand duners to set a car with the suspension at max height all the time, that only provides a harsh nasty ride. It should be set so that at ride height with gas in the tank and people in the car, it should be at about 1/3 travel to topped out, and 2/3 travel to bottomed out.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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PhillipM
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2010
Posts: 595
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:04 am Post subject: |
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As above, droop travel is very important to ride quality and handling, so you want at least 1/3rd of the travel as droop unless that gives you clearance issues.
If it's pegged against the straps the ride will be marginally better than just welding the suspension solid. Marginally. |
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sloboatnova
Samba Member
Joined: September 20, 2009
Posts: 989
Location: Broken Arrow, Ok
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SamT
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2009
Posts: 1761
Location: Rule, Tx
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
| While it's popular among the midwest sand duners to set a car with the suspension at max height all the time, that only provides a harsh nasty ride. It should be set so that at ride height with gas in the tank and people in the car, it should be at about 1/3 travel to topped out, and 2/3 travel to bottomed out. |
Exactly. Its just tough to give up the ground clearance when your mostly stock. I usually set my stuff with stock style vW suspension to have about 20% droop loaded. But its not too bad if you setup an empty car to be just barely touching the stops without you in it.
In my long travel buggy its set to 30% with just me in it. Its almost 50 with a passenger. You have to keep the tires on the ground at all times if your gonna go fast on real rough stuff. |
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Sandjunky
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2015
Posts: 292
Location: New Mexico
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| sloboatnova wrote: |
| You may find larger than stock torion bars in it. How does it feel when you bounce on the frame? |
I'm roughly 217 lbs. and with bare frame without engine or tranny I can barely make it move. The torsion arms that slip over the torsion bars have ride height adjusters that aren't even being used, meaning they are bottomed out. So whoever set this up used the torsion bars instead of the ride height adjuster. This thing was probably a back breaker.
I'm going to strip it to bare frame, paint it, and then start over. Its been many years since I've messed with a VW rear suspension. Is there a good tech article for setting it up? Thanks |
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Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20380
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:13 am Post subject: |
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The book "Baja Bugs and Buggies" by Jeff Hunter has who sections on front and rear suspension.... Book is dated but concepts don't change much...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
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I Ride Sand
Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2012
Posts: 567
Location: utah
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| Sandjunky wrote: |
| sloboatnova wrote: |
| You may find larger than stock torion bars in it. How does it feel when you bounce on the frame? |
I'm roughly 217 lbs. and with bare frame without engine or tranny I can barely make it move. The torsion arms that slip over the torsion bars have ride height adjusters that aren't even being used, meaning they are bottomed out. So whoever set this up used the torsion bars instead of the ride height adjuster. This thing was probably a back breaker.
I'm going to strip it to bare frame, paint it, and then start over. Its been many years since I've messed with a VW rear suspension. Is there a good tech article for setting it up? Thanks |
it was the same with mine while i was building it, i weigh 240lbs and could barely move it without an engine or trans. it had the stock bars set at the stock setting. get en engine and trans in there BEFORE you start worrying if it is too stiff or not. |
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PhillipM
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2010
Posts: 595
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| And make sure you've got as much friction out of the bushings, link pins, etc, as you can, otherwise it'll feel solid until the first time you hit something big. |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
The book "Baja Bugs and Buggies" by Jeff Hunter has who sections on front and rear suspension.... Book is dated but concepts don't change much...
Dale |
Hey Dale!
My old race partner who wrote that excellent and still valid book nearly 35 years ago was named "Jeff Hibbard", not "Hunter".
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Aerindel
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2015
Posts: 459
Location: Western Montana
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| Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:00 am Post subject: |
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Love that book. It was really all I had to start with but its what convinced me that this project was actually worth doing.
_________________
Homemade woods/street, bug out rail. IRS, Balljoint front end. 1967 1600cc DP, Weber 32/36 progressive, tri-mil quiet pack. Rear only cutting brakes.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630046 |
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HERC
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2007
Posts: 1003
Location: Menifee
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:12 am Post subject: |
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the hibbard way.
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Herc |
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Sandjunky
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2015
Posts: 292
Location: New Mexico
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Dale M. wrote: |
The book "Baja Bugs and Buggies" by Jeff Hunter has who sections on front and rear suspension.... Book is dated but concepts don't change much...
Dale |
I am pretty sure I owned that book at one time or another, but I have no idea what happened to it. I haven't had a rail in nearly 12 years so it grew legs at some point.
All I lack is a 17mm Allan Head to remove the trailing arms. Another 10-15 minutes with a wire wheel and it'll be ready for paint and reassembly. |
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