Starter/Flywheel mismatched in my 67 Bus?

[qball]

I hope I've uploaded correctly these three pix. If not, my description may suffice. Please help me solve this problem! I've replaced my starter 4 times, the last time I also replaced the flywheel. The first 3 starters were standard, with the bushing replaced as well. They failed, both with the teeth shredding and the teeth on the flywheel as well. I thought that the other type of startere, as shown here if the photos came up, the one that does not seat into the bushed housing, would do better, especially with a new flywheel, but they both ripped each other up in a couple of months. This is a 67 Bus, with a 1600 engine (no serial number on the case). My assumption is it's the original transmission. Could it be a 6-volt transmission, and the starter and flywheel aren't close enough to fully engage? I have the transmission serial, I think. I will look for it and post if I do. Thanks for any ideas,
Matthew

[mandraks]

the starter has to match the flywheel, not so much the transmission.

count the teeth on your respective flywheels, that will tell you if it is 6 or 12 volt, buy the starter to match the flywheel.

depending on starter type and transmission, you might need the bushing or not
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regards

Uli

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'53 3-Fold Oval, L35 Metallic Blue, looking for a narrow hatch panel

[quartermilecamel]

6 voltin in the usa hell yeah. 6 volt flywheel, 12 volt starter. Replace flywheel with a 12 volt one...then all is good. Does your starter sound extremely LOUDDDDDD when it turns over? 6 volt flywheels have less teeth on them, why I don't know. For some reason when vw went to 12 volts they decided that more teeth is better. You have the exact scenario that I had when I found my bus. 6 volt flywheel on a 12 volt AUTOSTICK starter. Since my 6 volt flywheel was trash anyway at the crank sealing surface I replaced it with 12 volt one and all was good. and no extremely loud starter noice
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[Malokin Martin]

He says he replaced the flywheel also last time. It would be weird if he mismatched twice with another (likely) 6 volt flywheel.

[quartermilecamel]

wish that picture was straight on the flywheel. Well its either gotta be the flywheel or the starter but even rarer is the 6 volt autostick starter on a 12v flywheel
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Waiting for santa to drop off funky green. I can wish can't I????

[qball]

thanks folks; sorry I was away. yes, when i replaced the flywheel I am confident it is 12 volt, but no I don't have a tooth count. And I certainly purchased a 12 volt starter. Whether the first flywheel was 6 or 12 I can only guess, but I can't imagine it wasn't 12v. Hell, yes, I've had noise. They work for a while, then work with grinding noises, then stop working. Been through it over and over. My idea of the 6volt trans was just imagining the housing for the starter, I don't know, sitting farther away from the engine/flywheel. I'm kind of sorry I brought up 6 vs 12 at all. It was mentioned in another thread, but not in reference to the teeth shearing off.
I didn't mention the following because, like the 6/12 volt idea, I have no idea if it's worth mentioning; I guess I was hoping this wasn't particular to me and others had the same issue. Sounds like one of you has (sorry i can't remember who wrote the comment about the noises). Anyway, the lower engine mount holes are very worn; ellipses instead of circles. The metal above the channel for the studs is so thin it's cracking. Also, the front trans mount failed once, was replaced with one of the red plastic ones, and that shredded to bits. I put an original metal one in. Someone before me added a yoke/harness which wraps around the trans about the middle, suspending it from the frame. I think the trans moves and/or the engines sags, even when bolted at the top and secured at the bottom where the stud channels are out-of-round. Sags enough to pull the flywheel away from the starter so the teeth barely engage and shred. I think I need a transmission.

[joe56vw]

if that is a true automatic starter then you need to remove the bushing as they do not use them and that could be part of your problem

if your tranny is a 6v one then a 12v flywheel would not fit and you wouldn't even get the engine to bolt up enough to run unless the bellhousing was grind out to 12v

another thing to look at is the bottom bolt on the starter to see if it is stripped out or bent or ????

either way I would not run that flywheel again as it's not balanced anymore from the starter chipping the teeth away

it's go back to the drawing board time go thru everything and measuring, test, recheck that all parts are 12v
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[esde]

Are the top engine mount bolts in and tight? Are the two starter bolts in and tight? Is there some chunk of something under there keeping the starter from mounting square to the flywheel? Something is keeping them out of alignment. 12 volt starter on a 6 volt flywheel, I think the starter pinion is too small to even hit. 6 volt starter on a 12 volt flywheel makes one hell of a racket, might turn the engine a bit, but you would know something is wrong.

[qball]

Joe, esde, thanks for your thoughts. Joe, I think you got it. Sorry I don't have the trans serial no. although I tried to find a list of years to check it against and couldn't. As I said, the metal is cracking above the lower mount holes, presumably because some of it's been ground away so it's thinned. There are other grooves in the housing as well, probably from the flywheels scraping. I bet it's a 6 volt tranny and I've been able to mount 12v flywheels only because it's been ground. It's been very difficult to put the engine in, which I've done numerous times. Lower studs seem to barely pass through, for one thing. Always seemed like I was wrestling it into position, and it's possible with both a flywheel I borrowed from a 71 engine, and then the one in the picture which a qualified local shop put on for me, that the teeth were shorn promptly upon startup. Which is to say, the starters could do only so much, since the transmission started shortening the flywheel teeth. I agree, sadly, that I will need to go step by step. Thanks for the help.

[Fiatdude]

OK --shouldn't be a 6v trans -- if it was and somebody stuck a 12v flywheel in there, there would be some clearancing done -- check for that but there is a small lip that the engine centers itself on (looking at your very first picture that lip look undisturbed) (as well as the 4 bolts) so the engine should be the correct distance from the starter

67 should be 12v trans anyway -- IF the bushing is worn out or the hole is shot that will cause the starter shaft to wobble around and things to get ugly -- --

Get a autostick starter -- the shaft is self supported and doesn't require the bushing -- next time you get a starter, get an autostick anyway -- they are just a better starter all the way around

Here is the difference between a 6v and a 12v starter gear -- the 6v (on the right) has a slightly larger diameter but the same amount of teeth

With the 12v system they also went to a little bigger engine and with the 12v flywheel few extra teeth they gained a slightly more mechanical advantage to turn the engine over, but at a slightly slower speed....


.
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For every mile of road, there is 2 miles of ditch

[qball]

Boy, I am starting to see the value of keeping documents, sales slips, invoices, names of people we buy vehicles from). I think someone did put a 6v trans in this originally-12volt vehicle. But again, I haven't found a table of trans serial numbers to check it out. If anyone comes across one, I'd like to do so.
Fiatdude, the pix show the autostick starter; it had been recommended earlier and I was happy for a minute, thinking I was beyond this problem. As Joe said, it makes the bushing unnecessary, but as you can see, I failed to remove the bushing. Don't know for sure, but maybe the "cap", that you see sitting there, from the end of the starter shaft, bumped into the bushing and that's how it was knocked off. Who knows? Thanks for your photo of the two starters; the 6v looks like the one in my photo, but unless whomever filled my order looked at "67" and decided that meant 6volt, I would be amazed that they sold me a 6volt autostick starter. Also, when Bob Hicks' shop put on that flywheel, I feel certain he would have noted an incorrect starter.

[Clara]

[qball]

Well, heck. Thanks, Clara; responded, ad nauseum, but I guess it didn't get posted. Yes, with the autostick I hoped to have transcended the bushing issue. As stated, maybe I needed to remove the bushing for the autostick, and maybe that's how the little cap got chewed up and fell off (it's sitting there I the first photo). Sure, mounts wear out; the replacement red polyurethane? one which I just replaced hadn't been on there very long, though. Maybe they're junk, I don't know. I think, as recommended here, I need to start all over, sigh, and to begin with, id the trans. I've read posts here discussing serial numbers, but no one could come up with a table of numbers, so if anyone knows where to look, let me know. On the other hand, with the thinning/cracking/scraping that's already occurred, it seems like I need to replace it. I just wish I could solve the question. 6/12, whatever, if the new flywheel fit into the Bus, and since the autostick starter doesn't rely on the bushed mounting, what the hell is going on? If it's implausible that the starter teeth contacting the flywheel teeth could shred the flywheel teeth in the entire circumference of the fw, as happened, in no time at all, then despite no noise while running, the flywheel must be scraping the transmission. That's why I imagine "sagging", even though I understand the lip on the trans and the mating of the engine/trans when bolted into position.

[Clara]

Don't bother with trying to i.d. the trans from a number. Doesn't matter. As long as the starter and FW are matched, and the trans is already clearanced for the FW, then it should be good.
re-read my post above and

check to see if the motor is coming loose from the trans?
is the fw coming loose from the motor?

Is there a noise when the engine is running?
or only when the starter is used? I am guessing a noise made you get the starter changed, is that right?
So each time you had work done, it was okay for a while, then the noise came back after some amount of time? Is that right?
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[qball]

[olliehank47]

[qball]

Thanks ollie; I am encouraged to get a new idea. They really are profound grooves, aren't they? I don't know the answer. I have some other pix at work that I can review and post that may show this area better. And it does seem like more than a starter and even the massive fw scraping what amounts to a small amount of metal off its teeth might be involved when I hear the noise. I mean, it's a bloodcurdling sound. So maybe the plate is involved. Thanks.

[Clara]

[qball]

Sorry if that's vague. No, I meant that when I've removed the starters and/or engine, it requires the typical amount of force to loosen the connections. Didn't put the torque wrench on them to check first. I haven't found anything as obvious as loose nuts and bolts.

[Clara]

I am looking at this pic and there is this balled up piece of metal on the right ... WTF is that? Where did it come from? Why did it come loose? Is it part of the clutch?

It looks like a clutch or something came apart and smacked around in the trans bell housing for a while.... I can't tell is that historic scarring or more recent. I see some on the starter, so perhaps it is more recent. Normally I would think it was clutch gone bad, and replace the bad part.

The circular scraping, perhaps more recent? What is that from? It would make a horrific noise. So what has been scraping in there, and why? So I would look at the FW and clutch and check them out.

If the engine was securely bolted to the trans, and not working loose, then that's not it. Did the FW come loose? Did the clutch come apart?

Do you have a pic of the engine from this angle?

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