Clunking up front while braking

prkid424 · Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:32 am Post subject: Clunking up front while braking

Started hearing a steady clunking while braking up in the front that decreases with speed...not while accelerating, driving, engine braking or coasting. Just when applying the brakes. What should I be checking?

I can't really tell if its left or right side. The clunking does slow with speed. I am noticing no additional shimmies or shakes while driving and the car stops fine otherwise. I adjusted the brakes less that 200 miles ago and did not have issues until recently, maybe the last 20-30 miles (basically last few cruises around town) when I started to notice it notice it. It is not getting worse or louder......yet.

I am planning on redoing the entire brakes on the buggy in the winter (everything but the actual drums, cylinders, pads, springs, backing plate, bearings, lines)

Buggy is sitting on a '62 pan, link & pin front end, drums all around, being pushed by a '65 1200

Suggestions?

BL3Manx · Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:39 am Post subject:

For clunking, first thing I'd check is the lug bolts.

Clunking is a scary noise if its coming from your suspension. I'd push it into the garage, jack it up and pull and check every wheel and every brake(axle bearings and nut) and if that doesn't find it, check the security of the trailing arms.

prkid424 · Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:03 pm Post subject:

lug nuts were checked. Should have mentioned that PO put wheel adapters (Ford up front and Chevy in rear) so I will also check those. But when I adjusted the brakes they seemed fine.

BL3Manx · Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:00 pm Post subject:

You can't see the lug nuts that hold the adapter to the drum unless you remove the wheel

prkid424 · Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:29 am Post subject:

MrGoodtunes

Hot Air · Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:04 am Post subject:

I just had this problem turned out the tab on the brake shoe had bent over and caused the shoe to rub the drum... I would remove the drum and take a look anyways, Good insurance.
I don't know how the brake pad tab got bent
_________________
73' Bug
85' Porsche 911 Carrera 3.2

BL3Manx · Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:36 am Post subject:

[quote="prkid424"]Wheels were removed when I adjusted brakes not too long ago (less that a few hundred miles) and the adapters seemed fine (Visually inspection). I will, obviously, check them but wanted to know if other folks in this community had similar issues and what they did to fix it. My hopes is to be able to glean from others experience and have a targeted approach...a lil more that "check the entire front end" Hoping to get more targeted suggestions. [quote]

If the frequency of the clunk changed with speed, its either something that rotates or touches something that rotates, thats the wheels or the brake assemblies.

Pulling a front drum is about as complicated as changing spark plugs. You could have had them off in the first ten minutes and told us what you found and then we'd have some hope of diagnosing the problem vs. just throwing out spitballs.

IowaRedManx · Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:22 am Post subject:

Years ago, I had a clunking sound on a Manx. Found that there were several lug bolts striking a wheel cylinder, or brake shoe. A closer examination revealed that 2 of the log bolts were a couple of inches longer than the others.

I would not have found it if I had not checked the front end, especially the front brake system.

Also, when a user like BL3Manx, with almost 6000 posts on this forum, takes the time to provide us with some of his knowledge, we should pay attention. He has been where we are going, and has a t shirt to prove it. Based on the symptoms he was given it would be very difficult to pin the problem down to a specific bolt. He was trying to get you in the general area, so that you could see what the problem was.

I have been into the VWs and VW based buggies since 1968, and I still depend on the guys with both experience & knowledge to keep my fat out of the fire.

prkid424 · Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:44 am Post subject:

prkid424 · Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:58 am Post subject:

[quote="BL3Manx"][quote="prkid424"]Wheels were removed when I adjusted brakes not too long ago (less that a few hundred miles) and the adapters seemed fine (Visually inspection). I will, obviously, check them but wanted to know if other folks in this community had similar issues and what they did to fix it. My hopes is to be able to glean from others experience and have a targeted approach...a lil more that "check the entire front end" Hoping to get more targeted suggestions.

wythac · Samba Member Joined: August 02, 2004 Posts: 2791

When you get those drums off, also check the three bolts that hold the backing plate to the spindle. If they aren't the originals the bolt heads might be too tall, and if not contacting the drum or the backside of too long lug bolts, might be deflecting a brake spring to rub in an irregular rhythm. Its also possible you have some FOD in there, which your removing the drums will help detect.

If you still don't find a smoking gun, remove those wheel adapters. If you have the original lug holes, and if you can find a buddy with some stock wheels and tires, try em on and see if it goes away. Adapters can do some funky voodoo on drums and suspension. The type of non stock rims you might be using can also lead to some irregularities as well.

As time consuming as it might be, if you dont find anything obvious, change only one variable at a time....you'll feel better after having discoverered and isolated the problem rather than had it just go away without knowing what you did to fix it.

Good luck.

prkid424 · Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:24 am Post subject:

Ok here we go.....

Drivers side: Noticed a few things immediately:

1- Its hella dirty/grimy in there and PO did not have a proper cotter pin holding the speedometer cable (looked like he just tied some wire)and he did not have the locking plate installed. Also tire rod end cover is split

2- the bottom spring retainer plate was done and that was rattling around so the bottom shoe was in all probability rubbing and moving around possible causing the clunking noise that I only heard while braking. Also made removing the drum a PITA

3- The "retainer clip" that holds the adjuster star was being held on by brake dust and grime.

Everything else looked ok. Nothing a good cleaning and new components wont fix.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Passenger Side:

1- Super dirty, there is actually grease/grime on the brake shoes.
2- Again PO did not have locking plate installed between the nuts
3- Uneven wear on top brake shoe (more work out toward front) and brake "splitting"

Drums on both sides looked ok. Off to the store to get a bunch brake cleaner.

Will order new shoes, and spring kit for the front (passenger and driver). Will also go ahead and order new wheel cylinders, lines to the master cylinder and star adjuster. I figure that way I can cross off the list anything inside the drum and the lines. Any suggestion on shops/brands to use?

I think the clunking was due to the bottom spring failing on the drivers side. I will clean it all up and put it back together when the parts get here.

Any ideas on why the passenger top shoe would wear unevenly? Or where I could check for what was leaking in there? How important is the adjuster "plate" that broke off? Seems like in order to replace that I would have to replace the entire backing plate

BL3Manx · Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:36 am Post subject:

Wolfsburg West will have most everything you need including the star adjuster tab. You can remove the broken piece and peen the new one in place

http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=211609185a

West Coast Metric has the tie rod boots.

https://www.westcoastmetric.com/product/111-835A/boottie_rod_end_set_of_4_brbug__ghia_194665

To pull the tie rod I use this tool

http://www.germansupply.com/home/customer/product.php?productid=18079

prkid424 · Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:13 pm Post subject:

PaulN · Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:34 pm Post subject:

Harbor Freight has a similar tool:
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-4-quarter-inch-forged-ball-joint-separator-99849.html
$22.00 minus your 20% coupon is inexpensive and it works good.

prkid424 · Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:37 pm Post subject:

Wolfsburg West has pretty much everything so I have started a cart. Couple of questions -Brazilian vs German, is the difference that great?

Brake hoses - is there a place that sells stainless steel hoses vs the rubber ones?

BL3Manx · Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 2:06 pm Post subject:

I think either Brazilian or German are fine.

Definitely the best stainless hoses I've seen are made by Crown, but the only place I know that carries them is my local shop, Bugformance.

http://www.bugformancesac.com/Default.asp

http://www.crownperformance.com/

Peening is to hammer on metal until it flattens and spreads like the tail of a rivet. Its probably best to use a punch or small chisel like in this picture. You could also tack weld or drill and use a small self tapping screw to hold them. They are definitely needed, your brakes can either tighten or loosen up without them

prkid424 · Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:56 am Post subject:

While doing some initial cleaning prepping the back plates for the new hardware coming in noticed that the passenger side is completely missing the adjuster locking plate. Guess I'll have extra practice peening those lock plates in place. Would some sort of epoxy or JB Weld be overkill?

Was going to use rustoleum high heat black paint to freshen up the backing plates- any issues with that?

Q-Dog · Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:17 am Post subject:

I use rustoleum on suspension and chassis stuff all the time becaus it's cheap and easy to touch up. You don't need the high heat paint.
_________________
Brian

'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle


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