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Upgrading air conditioning in 1991 Westy
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sbf6463
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:00 am    Post subject: Upgrading air conditioning in 1991 Westy Reply with quote

Looking for suggestions on how to upgrade the air-conditioning system and leads on mechanics who can do this within three hours of Portland,Oregon.
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ThankYouJerry
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm interested to see what others have to say too. Can we assume your '91 system is bone stock and hasn't been converted to R-134a yet?

I've read good things about Vintage Air's condensers but don't know which of their models works with post-'83 Westys.

From my own experience I can tell you that it makes a GREAT improvement in air flow removing the entire shroud in front of the blower vent. Less restriction of the blower and much better flow throughout the entire cabin.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Define what you mean by "Upgrade".

My upgrade was a flushed Evaporator, new Expansion valve (which proved to be a mistake and I reinstalled the original one), New crossflow Vintage Air Condenser, new AC Compressor, new Receiver /Dryer, new Binary switch and All new hoses, mounting rubbers and fittings.
I filled it with RedTek.

All total...... About $1,000 in parts alone.

Dave
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Howesight
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aside from maintenance items like cleaning the evaporator and its enclosure and installing new refrigerant hoses, receiver-drier and thermal expansion valve, which are intended to restore factory performance, there are two main upgrades you can do to the late-model Vanagon AC system:

1. Install a hydrocarbon-based refrigerant like Red Tek (which, conversely, means AVOIDING installation of R134A refrigerant);

2. Retrofit an aftermarket parallel-flow condenser in place of the factory condenser, and seal the new condenser to the Vanagon radiator with foam weatherstrip.

The problem with #1 above is that any certified mechanic or AC tech will refuse to install RedTek in your car at their establishment (for reasons relating to arcane EPA rules and spooky notions of liability). If you have a friend who is a tech, you might get around this by doing the install yourself with his guidance or having him do the install "under the table." Of course, R12 refrigerant (the original factory-installed stuff) is still available, but is quite expensive and unless you are confident you will not have or will not develop any refrigerant leaks in your AC system, it can be an expensive exercise.

Most of the work involved in overhaul or maintenance of the Vanagon AC system is "grunt work" and only 10% (by the time involved) requires advanced skills or knowledge or equipment. It is quite possible to do the "grunt work" and have a tech do the 10%.

What is the 10%?
-Evacuating the system;
-evaluating any leakage and remedying that leakage;
- installing the refrigerant charge; and
- checking system performance.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that the larger modern condenser is the main upgrade though early vans also benefit from using the later radiator fan and shroud.

I had the work done by a shop and used R12. It is a choice worth pricing out as the reputation is that it is expensive but it was really a small part of the cost of the project and cools really well.

I also replaced the hoses using barrier hoses - they are not really required if using R12 but it seemed prudent to position myself should things change in the future.

Really, the R12 costs about the same as a couple of tanks of gas and (knock wood) I have had no leaks in the 4 summers since it was done.
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Howesight
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Ahwahnee:

It must be an Arizona thing - - reasonably priced R12. It makes sense though, since everything that moves in Arizona has an air conditioning system of some sort, meaning there are so many "cashed in clunkers" from which the R12 could be recovered.

In these parts, R12 is prohibitively expensive. The OP would do well to check his local R12 prices.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Howesight wrote:
Aside from maintenance items like cleaning the evaporator and its enclosure and installing new refrigerant hoses, receiver-drier and thermal expansion valve, which are intended to restore factory performance, there are two main upgrades you can do to the late-model Vanagon AC system:

1. Install a hydrocarbon-based refrigerant like Red Tek (which, conversely, means AVOIDING installation of R134A refrigerant);

2. Retrofit an aftermarket parallel-flow condenser in place of the factory condenser, and seal the new condenser to the Vanagon radiator with foam weatherstrip.


Ahwahnee wrote:
I agree that the larger modern condenser is the main upgrade...


GoWesty just put this new upgraded parallel-flow condenser ($150) on their website 3 days ago:
http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details.php?id=24380&category_id=253&category_parent_id=
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, still, and I am going to repeat, that updated condensor was designed to make the inefficient 134-A function better, not anywhere as good as R-12, R-12A, just better than it is capable of performing all by itself.

If your planning on using 134-A, this would be a good idea.
If your using R-12, or R-12A, it isn't needed,required, and not even a smart move.
Your tossing $150.00 plus shipping away for absolutely nothing.

134 is being phased out anyway, why spend the funds for a refrigerant that is a dead issue?

End of that story , again.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2015 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry Kay wrote:
If your planning on using 134-A, this would be a good idea.


The category my 1.8T Westy falls into. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having thrashed with the OEM a/c in our '90 Westy, I'll add my voice to those saying "clean everything up". When we bought the Westy, the PO (according to the bills) spent a lot of money on R-134A but missed the cause of the leak: a cracked compressor body. At the time, GW, etc. said there were no compressors available. Sanden, who makes new compressors for Westys, was due to make more but nobody knew when. Out of frustration, I went to my FLAPS. Two days later I had a brand new Sanden compressor.

I replaced the receiver/drier and expansion valve as well as the compressor. Replacing the expansion valve means dropping "The Box from Hell" with the evaporator in it. This is an ugly job, and really needs two people to get the thing down. With the box down, I replaced all of the foam strips that sealed air passages and generally checked things out. But I missed something.

I put the box back together and had a system that worked well with Red Tek. With the fan full on, hunks of black foam blew out. I figured that was just excess stuff from my work and ignored the stuff (after I cleaned up the cabin). Bad idea.

That was about two years ago. Fast forward to this past summer.

The a/c simply stopped cooling. The air temp at the vents was much too warm. I decided to re-charge the system with Red Tek. To make a long story short, I found the low pressure "sweet spot" that gave the best cooling, but the temperature differential (intake temp vs. discharge temp) was still miserable. After far too much time and Red Tek spent in trying to get things back to how they'd been, I gave up and took the Westy to a shop to have the matter sorted out.

The shop won't work with Red Tek (understandable), so I delivered the Westy with a vacuum in the system, and I knew it'd be charged with 134A when I got it back.

They dropped the box and found the problem very quickly. The black foam that blew out of the vent wasn't anything I'd installed. It was mystery foam that AFAIK the PO wrapped around the edge of the evaporator (I have no idea what possessed him to do it!!). Most of the foam didn't blow out of the vents, it was blown into the evaporator by the fans! I'd accepted the foam as "factory original" and didn't pay any attention to it as it seemed to be OK and not likely to cause any problems. Silly me.

With the evaporator unplugged, the system works well. However, as I expected, the 134A simply doesn't give the amount of cooling R-12 did. I will not use R-12 - it's environmentally nasty stuff. What I will do is leave the 134A in the vehicle until next summer and then have it removed. I'll return to Red Tek at that point.

Before doing any work on the system, buy a UV flashlight (look on eBay for a cheap UV flashlight - I think I paid $10 for mine). Shine it on all of the joints and around the compressor, looking for bright yellow patches of dye. It's always possible dye was never in your a/c, but I doubt it. Anywhere you see dye, replace the o-rings for the fitting. Van Cafe sells a good o-ring kit.

As to upgrading: replace, at the very least, the receiver/drier. Since that means the system will be opened (be nice and have the 134A removed properly instead of venting it into the air), this is the time to install Red Tek. Drop the box and replace the foam strips that seal the baffles in the box, and clean out the evaporator fins. Unless you know, for certain, that solid debris has been circulating in the system, I wouldn't replace the expansion valve.

When you close the box, pay careful attention to attaching the condensation drain lines. They're a pig to hold in place and the spigots on the pan are quite willing to snap off. I think Van Cafe sells a replacement, but you're better off to not break them.

If you're a masochist, you can drop the condenser and clean it out, too. Unless there are tons of bugs and other crud in the radiator, assume the condenser is reasonably clear and leave it alone. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Finally, remember any Westy is a rolling green house, and the a/c air intake is in about the warmest part of the green house. That means the system is drawing in air heated by the sun, not just ambient temperature air. As the air in the cabin cools, there will be some drop in the intake air temperature, too, which means the a/c will be more effective. But that's going to take at least 30 minutes of continuous operation, with the vehicle closed up. Open a door or window and the clock starts again from zero.

- - - -

You need two things from Harbor Freight, their a/c gauge set and a for-real vacuum pump (not the cheapo "sorta maybe pulls a vacuum" thing). Figure on spending $150-200 if you have your HF 20% discount coupons handy (hint: buy one item with a coupon, go away, come back with another coupon and buy the other item - HF applies a coupon to only one item per purchase). I wouldn't want to have to make a living by using this stuff, but for occasional use it's fine.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again,
UPGRADING
is entirely different from
MAKING AN OLD SYSTEM WORK.

What is your goal?

RBEmerson is making an old system work.

I upgraded my system by removing the entire system, cleaning and reusing what was good (Evaporator Assembly) discarding and replacing what wasn't with new state of the art components. (Everything else)

I have plans on adding a small In Dash AC Evaporator feeding through the factory heat box, this is in addition to my rear AC...... That's upgrading.

Upgrading costs serious money, making an old system work can be fairly cheap $$ and is also an "iffy" trouble prone long term repair.

Dave
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1st 4 of my 5 wbxs ac inop when purchssed. If u clean outside, evap housings etc & flush insides all 4 a.c. 's worked very well (red tec) . Been the 134 'convert' on brand X', it sucks, live & learn. Current syncro will chill down to suit anyone, ran without ceiling duct 4 a couple weeks, put it back 4 looks. Get your front vent sealed ,flaps, doors etc & it will do fine even in 104f temps, weak compressors have to be replaced,as usual no warranty offered at this time.
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"
djkeev wrote:
Again,
UPGRADING
is entirely different from
MAKING AN OLD SYSTEM WORK.


Here is another area where there is a big play on words.

To me there is two ways of doing this tedious job;

Repair, or rebuild.

The reason many years ago I introduced/ suggested the process of flushing out the high & low pressure lines with air dryer alcohol, changing the oil in the compressor, get a new dryer in the system, get the dried up factory black foam evaporator wick material out of the cabinet, sucking the overly large system down for hours, not 20 minutes as a lot of folks didn't even know about or think about, was to suggest this was all possible to them to get the fastest way to cold cabin air without spending a lot of money.
Just a bunch of time--and the end result may not be what they expected because of internal hose failure due to it's old age.
The old hose falling apart in it's interior, plugging up the capillary tube in the expansion valve seemed to be a big problem, which can't be avoided.

This is a speculative repair, discovery situation, because nobody knows the overall condition of the hose or compressor--but could possibly be a road to cold air if everything is good & salvageable, and at best a crap shoot.
But at least the operator would know from this point forward what he would have to do to get it right.

A restoration process is ripping everything out of the van associated with the AC, replacing it all, and then performing the freon reloading process using a more efficient refrigerant.

Updating is adding a bigger compressor, bigger evaporator, bigger cfm fans, a different out of the cabinet expansion valve to make it service friendly--perhaps changing to an old style GM set up at the dryer,updating to barrier hoses, adding a front evaporator, using Red-Tek instead of the low performance 134-A.

There has been for years here guys walking into Wally World, buying a couple of cans of 134-A and topping off their R-12 system and calling that an update.
Not so my friends.

Either you're all in in this act, or you're all out.

One might get lucky with a short cut, but the results ( whatever they may be ) will be short lived, and frustrating.

I think I have mentioned this before and here is something to watch out for.
If a guy has poor temp performance out of his vents, can't seem to get decent, or continuous evac readings, the first place he would probably go would be the expansion valve.
Absolutely.

Here where a lot of folks trying to save a buck buying aftermarket expansion valves on the internet make a big mistake.

Expansion valves have different pressure values.
An aftermarket valve is not the same as the OE from VW valve.
I don't know what that figure is, haven't figured that out yet.
But--every time I run into this pressure high vent temp issue, I have found that somebody, somewhere, at some time has been into the evaporator cabinet, and swapped the factory valve for an aftermarket unit, not allowing the system to function properly--get cold, maintain solid high & low pressure readings.

I have a few stock VW valves which I kept on the shelf, and every time I swapped them out--Bingo--the AC has came back to life--perfect .

Might want to take a look at this if you're having poor performance issues with your AC.

I know Dave had the same problem last summer, and swapped back from a new aftermarket inexpensive expansion valve, back to the original VW OE unit.
He updated, but in essence went backwards in this case.
The update worked the wrong way for him-and a lot of other folks.
You have to be real careful here in thinking an update will cure all--it won't all of the time.

Also the thought of installing a cross flow condenser to get cooler vent temps is a foolish waste of money.
The stock condenser works well with R-12, R-12 A.
If your planning on using either one of these refrigerants it isn't required, save the bucks for the freon or new dryer, hoses, compressor, etc.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I upgraded my AC I did a lot of reading and thinking.

I've been working on cars since the 60's but honestly never was a whiz at AC, nor do I claim to be today.

I do know that an Auto's AC has changed in huge ways since the 1960's and even that our "modern" Vanagon units cling to the old R12 technology.

Part of what I read came from Vintage Air, a most excellent company producing AC kits for vintage cars. I needed a new Condenser for the East Coast salt laden air had taken it's toll on the fine aluminum fins on the unit, dissolving much of them into mere dust held together by black paint.

I had read what Terry says about cross flow and how with R12a it isn't needed, but I did need something and after reading Vintage Air's information I concluded that more refrigerant cooling area can't be at all bad.
Was I right?
I don't know but mine works quite well. Would it have worked just as well with the OG Condenser?
According to Terry...... Yes it would.
I do plan on adding a 2nd in dash Evaporator this Winter, will my increased cross flow cooling capacity be needed?
I don't know...... but I rest comfortably knowing that capacity is there should I need it.

I also knowingly ignored his written warnings about new expansion valve..... "Silly old goat! I'll upgrade it anyway."
Paid for that mistake! Literally, the cost of priority shipping of my old valve to Montana, purchase of a new Vacuum pump on the way to Montana in Fargo ND. And the wasted RedTek.

Here is the Vintage Air discussion on Condensers........ Take it for what it is.

BTW, patronize Vintage Air, they have good stuff and their prices are good. You won't find a better price on a real SanDen compressor ANYWHERE!
Cheaper than the knockoffs on most web sites.

They Are talking about 134a systems..... Saying exactly what Terry says about 134a's poor cooling characteristics and the need for more cooling capacity.
Note: They do not deal with R12a gases.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KISS.

Clean things up, fix what's broken, don't fix what's not broken, charge with Red Tek, and see if you like the results. If they're really far from what you want, then think about making changes. IMHO, I think you'll be surprised to find the system isn't all that bad. OTOH, I don't think I'd care to cross Death Valley, at noon in the summer, while betting on the a/c to keep eggs from frying on the dashboard. But then, the system was built for a country where 85F is considered a seriously hot day: Germany.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RBEmerson wrote:
KISS.

Clean things up, fix what's broken, don't fix what's not broken, charge with Red Tek, and see if you like the results. If they're really far from what you want, then think about making changes. IMHO, I think you'll be surprised to find the system isn't all that bad. OTOH, I don't think I'd care to cross Death Valley, at noon in the summer, while betting on the a/c to keep eggs from frying on the dashboard. But then, the system was built for a country where 85F is considered a seriously hot day: Germany.


Just proves that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Although, I'd Certainly count on my AC across Death Valley or the Salt Lake.
Done that trip before...... No reason I can think of to return anytime soon.

You're not wrong, nor am I right. We simply view the task of getting good AC from two totally different view points.

But, having removed and disassembled my old AC compressor I Can really see the amount of literal gunk (black nasty oil Goo, BTW AC compressor oil when new is very viscous and clear) that builds up in these old systems and can cause significant operation problems. I'd rather not run a system that teeters on the brink of failure all of the time.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/posting.php?mode=quote&p=7607933

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another issue with the Vanagon AC unit, that in my memory might have been brought up once.

For the sake of weight savings VW decided to go with aluminum Sanden compressors, which are running at their max capacity as soon as the switch is turned on.
Real poor set up, real poor compressor.
But, this is the mindset folks have taken on this issue;
It's there, it came in the van originally, must be the right thing to

I would consider an "Updated" AC refrigerant delivery system the best updae that could be performed to the Greyhound sized system in the vanagon.

A Frigidaire (AC Delco) compressor out of a Mid 60's GM vehicle a Tecumseh out of a older Chrysler would out perform , be able to move the freon anywhere within the confines of the components in a single bound.
Without even working hard.
This alone, I would consider the best "update" to the Vanagon system a guy could do for max AC output in his Vanagon.
Hands down, being able to move the freon as efficiantly as one could is the easiest way to top shelf AC performance.

The black goo or snot that Dave found in his compressor can be found throughout the entire system.
This is why a good flushing prior to an evac & loading the system up is very critical.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading air conditioning in 1991 Westy Reply with quote

sbf6463 wrote:
Looking for suggestions on how to upgrade the air-conditioning system and leads on mechanics who can do this within three hours of Portland,Oregon .


One last time : KISS & if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'm out.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Upgrading air conditioning in 1991 Westy Reply with quote

RBEmerson wrote:
sbf6463 wrote:
Looking for suggestions on how to upgrade the air-conditioning system and leads on mechanics who can do this within three hours of Portland,Oregon .


One last time : KISS & if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I'm out.


And I'll say again, making it work, fixing only what is broken, is NOT an upgrade, it's simply a repair.
An upgrade is utilizing new components, barrier hoses and modern methodologies. Making it better than What it was when new.

Would I be upgrading my tires by putting in a plug to stop a leaky puncture?

Dave
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And again this is exactly why RBEmerson has been on his AC system for at least 2 years, with poor mixed end results.

Band Aides are better than corrective surgery.

Go figure.
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