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Roll/sway bars and camber compensator's
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andyrich1512
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:22 pm    Post subject: Roll/sway bars and camber compensator's Reply with quote

Hi All

Got a '65 bug that I have just swapped out a narrowed beam for stock width adjustable item and now have car back on the ground and am dialing in all the various bits and bobs - toe in / alignment etc.

The car had never had a front anti roll bar on and I'm wondering if the 1965 model would of had a anti roll/sway bar up front as standard - if so I may purchase one to install - is this a good idea as I've never run one but the whole point of me putting a stock width adjustable bea, back on the car is to restore some decent steering and hopefully improved handling.

Also, I need to set me rear toe out on back wheels and am thinking about a CC - would it matter if I align my rear end before I install a camber compensator or does the fitment of one of these affect ride height etc therefore making more sense to set the toe out afterwards?

Is it worth spending the extra on a CB Performance item or just go with a cheaper EMPI item?

Heres my set up:

Front
165/65 15 on 5.5 BRM's
stock width adjustable beam - only down enough to almost meet the taller side walled tyres
stock shocks
no roll / sway bar as of yet

Rear
195/65 15 on 5.5 BRM's
turned down just enough to meet top of tyre at lip of wheel arch - cant remember how many inner/outer's I turned it!
KYB gas-adjust shocks
no roll /sway bar
no camber compensator as of yet

I have been reading a bit about the set up of suspension on my model car and hopefully am learning a bit about getting somewhere near right - or a damn site better than what it used to be like.

Any advice as usual will be greatly appreciated!
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VOLKSWAGNUT
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes it was equipped and would benefit from the front sway bar..

Yes you can set toe before installing a Camber Compensator as it rides below the axles.. (especially lowered rear)
Adding one to a stock height and it sometimes can lightly effect ride height and toe but generally not enough to worry about.

Yes.. the CB Camber Compensator with the over the axle straps is better..

BUT !!!!

The problem.. If the rear is lowered it pulls on the straps.. which is not good..

It all depends on how much travel within the straps whether it will wear them out or effect the standard suspension.

If its lowered much.. then just dont use the straps...

Pssst... Anxious you can fake the same effect if you used shock limiting straps/cables Wink

Just want to keep the wheel from the ole' tuck and roll.

.
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andyrich1512
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Volkswagnut for the detailed info.

So if I'm lowered out back I maybe dont need one as much?

Its not really low but then I suppose its low enough to get a touch of neg camber when sitting on level ground.

Thanks again.
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66brm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The camber compensator is good to stop rear axle tuck when things don't go according to plan in a corner, it will also act more like a rear sway bar to an extent. If it was me and I was looking for better handling then I would fit one, I now run a heavier front bar and a rear sway bar which helps level the car during cornering on my 66
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VOLKSWAGNUT
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO.. if its a swing axle... it needs something juuuuuust in case..

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:


The typical available Camber Compensater does absolutely nothing to help negative camber and or correct negative camber. The only slight exemption is the ones with the over axle straps which in reality are doing more damage than good with a lowered VW.
The average compensater is designed for stock height suspensions. And unless you extend the straps and raise the pads on a lowered car they are in the wrong position.

The CC design is to keep rear wheels from snapping to extreme positive camber and oversteering in hard cornering.
The same thing can be accomplished with shock limiting straps.

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:

Limit straps on the rear shocks can help with the extended tucking.


The bars with the over the axle tube straps can act as a type of sway bar, plus control tucking, while the ones without the straps are designed to mainly keep the swing axle from tucking the wheel/tire.

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



And for live entertainment..

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:
wythac wrote:
I have a hard time staying in the saddle of my high horse when I think of some of the errors in judgment that I made as a younger version of myself. C'est La Vie.
.


As did... Think ... do ...
No way I'm ever on a high horse looking down...
A younger version of myself found the outer limits of ye ole' swing axle tuck syndrome..... Shocked
Needless to say.... it was a hell of an unpredictable snap over steer ride.. and a lesson of what NEVER to do again.. (even with a camber compensator or shock limiters)..
Nader was onto something... Laughing
Fortunately I've grown and learned into knowing.. limits.. and how to react to them..

I have many stupid self inflicted stories to tell.. and many if not all... I've learned from.. and yet... not scared to still try stupid stuff... live and learn.. its a great saying and motto..


Just a reminder.. what happens when the pendulum swings..
Specifically 1:49,... Swing axle over steer snap.. oh and no seat belt..
Them's tough..

VOLKSWAGNUT wrote:

Link



.

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aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited


Last edited by VOLKSWAGNUT on Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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sjbartnik
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ugh sad video. I liked seeing that Squareback get up on 2 wheels though! Shocked

You can find plenty of modern videos too on youtube of people still crashing in that same Nuerburgring corner today Very Happy
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Dake
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who sales the limit straps. I have looked with no luck. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-...mit+straps

I suggest the 12" straps. That's what I'm gonna install on my 67.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CB performance makes them.
http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=4005
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andyrich1512
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the replies folk of the samba!

Think I might have to have to mull this one over for the time being...although I like the idea of a CC if the car will benefit from it working properly.
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Northof49
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How well do limiting straps work? Is one likely to encounter the harshness of them limiting travel under only the most extreme conditions?

What would be a good amount of droop to permit, measuring from the static position?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Northof49 wrote:
How well do limiting straps work? Is one likely to encounter the harshness of them limiting travel under only the most extreme conditions?

What would be a good amount of droop to permit, measuring from the static position?


Yes.. you may feel the straps top out.
IMO its a nice reminder... you're pushing it..

Not sure about a droop measurement.. but once the axle is past level on the outboard side..... hang on.

.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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Northof49
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The central pivot of a camber compensator seems to be a really smart design feature, because the further the body leans in a turn, the more the camber compensator applies upward force on the outside axle, resisting jacking. I wonder if running both straps and CC are counterproductive?

Also, can anyone find an image showing how the straps are installed?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Straps help resists jacking as well.. but they can be a little more solid.

Not my pic.. but typical install.

The idea is .. keep the outboard swing axle from jacking too far past level.. and tucking the tire.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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VdanielW
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is mine. Stock spring settings with 12" limiting straps.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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Northof49
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting the pictures. Not much slack in them.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No slack in mine at all. Much like installing the spring plates, the torsions need to be preloaded to get the limiting straps on. You can run less preload by adjusting the spring plate up (just like lowering). The ride isn't bad. A little stiffer than stock because of the preload. You do need good shocks to go along with it (with as much preload as I have), but nothing expensive- gr2's work fine on both my bugs.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How does it handle? Do you ever try any real hard cornering?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I've used them.. I measured bolt to bolt on the shock on a level road and purchased the length accordingly..
Not super snug.. enough room for adequate travel.. on normal roads.. They would allow a slight over level axle when raised... which isnt too extreme to cause concern.
Unless the car hit hump to cause it to raise... never really knew they were there.
Im not auto-crossing a Vw.. though either.. Laughing

.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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Last edited by VOLKSWAGNUT on Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It handles very well. I wouldn't say I've cornered it hard (stock seats tend to throw you around a bit), but my other bug has the same straps and I have had it under much harsher conditions- the handling was very good.
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