Vanagon automatic in a bay?

[WhirledTraveller]

Just returned triumphant from a month long, 8000 mile road trip to Burning Man and back. It was not without a few mechanical quibbles, but it never left me walking and was basically a joy. However I knew the transmission was a weak point before I left and it's now even more painfully clear. Park is gone, up shifts are slow coming and jerky. And the ATF looks bubbly on the dipstick (but at least it's not mixing with the hypoid). I can't complain too much, it got me there and back.

I can buy a known good used Vanagon (1985) transmission, which appeals to me since it has the fittings for an external cooler. Before I do so I was hoping someone can confirm for me it's a direct bolt up with the same gear ratios?
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1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam.

[Mr. Unpopular]

As far as my research has led me they are a match and will work. I know early bay auto's were different, but the late bay and vanagon's should interchange.
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"In any racing engine, the nearer you are to it disintegrating, the better it's performance will be"
-Keith Duckworth, creator of the Ford/Cosworth DFV

[Wasted youth]

You should have the late model automatic transmission in your 1977 bus. It is referred to as the 090 or also referred to the 010 series. It is throttle modulated as opposed to the vacuum modulated 'early' model 003, also referred to as the Type 3 autobox. These were introduced to the bus in 1973.

Do you know how to identify these? There are case numbers. If you can reference the 1980-1991 Vanagon Bentley, you will see on page 4 of the General section at the front of the manual where the Type 090 automatic transmission is identified. There are four locations for part number identity including Valve Body code, Transfer Plate identity, Torque Converter code and the transmission code and date of manufacture stamp.

In your Baywindow Bentley, refer to the section for Automatic Transmission.

If you are able to harvest a donor out of a Vanagon, negotiate to also get the axle driveshafts, and special cable/throttle linkage. These are somewhat rare components, and will only get more rare as the years progress. Don't need the clutter? Bundle them up and hang them overhead in a corner of your garage. No wasted floor or shelf space.

[Wildthings]

The automatic section of the late Bay/Vanagon transaxle was used on many different VW and Audi products of the same era. There were some differences but for the most part they can be interchanged.

You might do some research in the Vanagon forum.

[WestyPop]

Yep. Starting with the wasserboxer-engined Vanagons in 1983.5, the automatics had external trans fluid coolers, as opposed to the earlier trannies (with air-cooled engines) only having cooling airflow via fins around the converter housings to tame the heat output produced (mostly) by fluid slippage/friction inside the torque converters themselves.

Moving to an external cooler is a real bonus, since if you can position a properly-sized ATF cooler so that its output of hot air doesn't heat up the engine's supply of cooling air, you will eliminate much of the converter heat that your 1977 auto trans has been transferring, by convection & conduction, over to your engine case all these years! Yay! That could be beneficial to the lives of all the engine & trans lubricants and the components they protect.

It might provide some peace of mind to reseal the case between the trans & final gear section before the new trans goes in.
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Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
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J.R.
68 Westy
(+ others)

[WhirledTraveller]

Thanks guys. Yep, I have an 010 automatic. Although gear ratio information seems hard to come by, it appears from one post I read that the 1.9 liter waterboxer transmission may have slightly different 1st and 2nd gear ratios than the 2.1, but they all share the same 3rd gear (1:1) and final drive, so it should work fine. Think I'll bite. And yes, reseal all external seals and the two seals between the transmission and differential. Also, a short while back I pointed an IR thermometer at my transmission after a long desert uphill pull and it read 250 degrees. Too hot, I like the ATF cooler idea.
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1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam.

[danfromsyr]

All the 76-91 autos have the same 3spd gear ratios
it's the R&P that changes between models (though they are the same in the bus/van)
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[Wildthings]

FWIW, when I did the Subaru engine swap in my Vanagon, I never got a cooler installed on the tranny and have just run synthetic ATF. No problems so far in about 50K miles. If I pulled a trailer I would definitely go with an external cooler though.

[WhirledTraveller]

Wildthings, I presume you just left the ATF to coolant exchanger in place? I don't have that option in a bus since I don't think it'll fit with the bus transmission mount.

In any case, my research online has led me to believe that, while the ATF may take the heat fine, the seals and rubber parts in the transmission surely don't last as long and as mentioned the heat transfers over to the engine. A basic transmission cooler is not expensive especially if I forgo a thermostat and just block it off in the winter.
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1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam.

[Wasted youth]

My 1987 Vanagon is water cooled, and has a so-called transmission fluid cooler that uses engine water jacket to cool the ATF through a small heat exchanger which VW called the cooler. Allegedly, these are prone to failure, mixing ATF with water coolant, etc.

If your donor comes with it, you can remove it and plug the inlet and outlet passages, or better yet, mount an external finned cooler for your ATF.

[Wildthings]

[WhirledTraveller]

OK, I wasn't sure if it was possible to plug the ports on the vanagon transmission with no ill effects or if you needed to provide a fluid path. If you can plug them then it just turns into the same thing as a bus transmission.
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1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam.

[Wildthings]

I don't know what is the best way, but I just ran a hose from one port to the other so there is fluid flow.

[WestyPop]

As Grandpa Pete indicated, at least provide a return link from one fitting to the other.

OTOH ... IDK if the later Vanagon torque converter has the "air-cooling" fins, but as inexpensive as external trans coolers are, IMHO it seems a real shame to miss an easy opportunity to shed some heat that could otherwise have a negative effect on engine or trans longevity.
_________________
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
______________________________________
J.R.
68 Westy
(+ others)

[alaskadan]

Perfect that this thread is so recent. I was just searching for a very similar issue. Im going to be putting a 2.2 suby in a 74 westy later this winter ( for a friend). Its a stick shift. Ive read that you would want to regear a stick trans with taller 3rd and 4th gears . It just so happens that i have an 87 vanagon parts van with auto trans. Evidently they are interchangeable (vanagon trans to bay). Since the bay isnt an original auto and doesnt have they linkages would it be worth considering? Vanagon linkages useable?

[Wildthings]

[alaskadan]

I read that with a four speed one might want taller gears when going to a suby. Thats why i consider putting the auto in the westy. Ive read that the autos are more robust and fair well with a power upgrade.

[Skyline]

Review Kennedy Engineering's site about their Subaru Vanagon conversions. They recommend changing the governor on the automatics and provide instructions on how to do it. They make no mention of re-gearing the ring and pinion in the automatic.

Also might want to review Go Westy's site about automatics and gearing.

Vanagon linkages will not work in a bay.

Vanagon shifter will not work in a bay.

Putting an automatic in a manual bay requires thinking and custom parts if you don't have a donor automatic bus. You will most likely not be able to buy the required parts off the internet. A donor bus is required to stay with stock components.

[alaskadan]

Thinking required? Oh shi#&%! Ha ha . Thanks i will read up what they have to say about gearing. I figured it was a long shot for vanagon linkages to work. Ive only read about regearing sticks not autos. Will look into the governor tweek.

[WhirledTraveller]