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arizonabuckeye
Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2013
Posts: 544
Location: SLC
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 Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
Check me if Im 100% wrong on this...
Are any other countries in the world worried about auto emissions other than the USA?
Im probably not the one to chime in on an emissions subject cause I'm still pissed that the USA killed the Two Stroke Detroit Diesel's.. The Screamin' Jimmy's for years kicked ass.. delivered the goods, helped win many wars and built the USA...
Yeah I know they weren't the cleanest engines... .. 
I guess thats just the typical way the USA says thank you...
VW isnt the only ones who fudge actual on the road emissions.. ..
Plus.. tuners that alter emissions.. are committing crimes that are punishable in the USA... .. never hear about those do you..?.
Most dont care.... I see vehicles all the time with the Engine Lamp on or taped over.. guess what.. they are polluting..
It only becomes an issue when its time to have an inspection... and the lamp needs to be off to pass for registration....
Over all.. emissions are leaps and bounds of where they were in the 60's..
Now.... VW altered the emissions knowingly.... they need to be scolded.. and made an example out of.. Just like other manufacturers of recent recalls...
Who's next.. .. cause.... Its all about $$$$$$$ ..
| KTPhil wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
your prius is more toxic to dispose of than you could ever imagine. |
The Prius/Volt/Leaf batteries are recycled, not discarded. Owners and shops are paid a hundred dollars or more to recycle them, so they never end up in the dump.
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Yeah those Hybrid batteries are "recycled"... but... to where? ...
Thats the problem.. they are recycled back.. but.... in reality that just means.. they are taken back.
Thats just so the average owner doesnt just shove them in the nearest lake or buries it in their back yard.
Recycling these shrub hugger polluter batteries.. .. The manufactures who get them back is unsure of hat to do with them... and is a growing toxic mountain.
Some companies claim to have recycling capabilities now.. and in the future.. hopefully its true.. and not just smoke and mirrors and later found in an underground bunker labeled "Do Not Open until after the blast or 4135 which ever come first."
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I have never talked to a Prius owner that has had rave reviews about their gas millage. Almost universally they have said something along the lines of "I don't get anywhere near what I thought I would" why? because at even 1 year old the battery health has declined so much that it is taking way more power to charge and is in turn using way more gas. So people end up with a car that only make 25 mpg AND has the toxic battery. Better off just getting a normal car that make 25 mpg and save making/replacing/recycling the battery.
And $100 to trade in the battery? I have heard quotes as high as $5k to get them replaced - doesn't sound like much of an incentive. |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11055
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Das Gutenuff Klaus... 
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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I love the idea of a electric car but a battery car is ingnorance gone to seed.
As a slot racer and slot controller manufacturer for many years I learned the way to do it is to get the power from the roadway. I know that would be a challenge but so was going to the moon.
Dan
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I have never talked to a Prius owner that has had rave reviews about their gas millage. Almost universally they have said something along the lines of "I don't get anywhere near what I thought I would" why? because at even 1 year old the battery health has declined so much that it is taking way more power to charge and is in turn using way more gas. So people end up with a car that only make 25 mpg AND has the toxic battery. Better off just getting a normal car that make 25 mpg and save making/replacing/recycling the battery.
And $100 to trade in the battery? I have heard quotes as high as $5k to get them replaced - doesn't sound like much of an incentive. |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33991
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
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I love the idea of a electric car but a battery car is ingnorance gone to seed.
As a slot racer and slot controller manufacturer for many years I learned the way to do it is to get the power from the roadway. I know that would be a challenge but so was going to the moon.
Dan
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I have never talked to a Prius owner that has had rave reviews about their gas millage. Almost universally they have said something along the lines of "I don't get anywhere near what I thought I would" why? because at even 1 year old the battery health has declined so much that it is taking way more power to charge and is in turn using way more gas. So people end up with a car that only make 25 mpg AND has the toxic battery. Better off just getting a normal car that make 25 mpg and save making/replacing/recycling the battery.
And $100 to trade in the battery? I have heard quotes as high as $5k to get them replaced - doesn't sound like much of an incentive. |
None of this jives with what I have experienced nor what I've read about, and I've read extensively, nor what friends have seen. Here's what I know:
1) In highway (high speed) driving the difference is slight. At that point it is 95% running on the gas engine only, and the only advantage over a conventional (say Corolla whose block it shares) engine is that the variable valve timing and Atkinson cycle approach makes it slightly more efficient. At 55mph the hybrid is probably 5mpg better or so, but I drive too fast to see it.
2) On short trips where it hasn't warmed up it runs rich to heat up the cat like an ordinary engine, and if your trips are 5 miles or less it's a waste.
3) Another area where the hybrid is not worth it is in very cold winter weather. The gas engine runs to generate heat and defrost so you still burn a lot of gas, same as a normal car.
4) Where it shines is in boulevard and stop&go driving. In these circumstances the battery is used as a quick give-and-take and also absorbs braking energy. This is why it actually was rated higher in city driving than in highway driving. I regular got low to mid 40s while driving it hard (I do NOT drive like a "typical" Prius driver, life's too short!) in town. Nothing else touches that.
5) Batteries typically last 200K miles or more. Taxis have been getting 300K-- the car wears out before the battery. They used to cost $5K at the dealer but with over a million Priuses on the road there are accidents and used batteries for under $1K. My brother replaced his at 150K for $1000 and they wondered why he needed it so soon.
6) Companies are also replacing single bad cells cheap, rather than the whole battery.
7) This is a little arcane, but the hybrid drive is a wonder. It's a CVT that used electrical fields in the motor/generators to effectively change the ratio, using a planetary gearset like used in an auto tranny. But there are no brake bands or any other friction surfaces. All gears are in constant mesh-- no clutches or syncros. Other than bearings, which last forever, there are no wearout modes! So for folks like me that keep cars forever, the cost of the battery swap works out to less then same cost of the tranny I will not have to rebuild at 200K miles.
So the bottom line is that if you keep cars a long time, and drive city or boulevards, and drive an average number of miles, the Prius makes sense with a payback of something like 4-6 years.
But if you drive high speeds, or mostly in very cold weather, or for very short trips, it's a waste to buy a hybrid.
These cars are no panacea, but the bogus environmental and battery issues alleged by Detroit just ain't true.
Last edited by KTPhil on Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:00 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33991
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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One more perspective.
One performance advantage of the hybrid is that it pairs two power sources with very different power curves. The electric motor provides a LOT of torque and its starts right at zero RPM. The gas engine, on the other hand, is most powerful at higher rpms. The two together are very complementary.
In a similar way VW used the TDI approach with similar advantage. Diesels have lots of lower end torque, but run out of suds as revs go up. The turbo doesn't do much at low rpm, but the boost gets large at high rpm. Another great complementary relationship, but with less complexity and roughly equal mpg. Fuel cost has been variable as clean air standards come so that drives the tradeoff as far as operating costs.
The TDI bugaboo has been emissions, mostly from particulates and NOx. Better FI, fuels, and exhaust systems have nearly licked that. With the PR branding iron of failure sizzling down on VW's TDIs, this may be a setback in the market for some time. No doubt a big deal will be made of the alleged performance hit the retrofitted (and new) cars will take, whether true or not (lawyers will see to that). So this may linger and cast a black cloud over TDIs for a while (an ironic simile given the diesel's history of soot and oily smoke!).
It's a real blow to VW and the diesel (at least in the popular and political public forums), and both deserve better. Let's hope the baby doesn't get thrown out with the bathwater as they try to ferret out the perps. |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5473
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
None of this jives with what I have experienced nor what I've read about, and I've read extensively, nor what friends have seen. Here's what I know:
1) In highway (high speed) driving the difference is slight. At that point it is 95% running on the gas engine only, and the only advantage over a conventional (say Corolla whose block it shares) engine is that the variable valve timing and Atkinson cycle approach makes it slightly more efficient. At 55mph the hybrid is probably 5mpg better or so, but I drive too fast to see it.
2) On short trips where it hasn't warmed up it runs rich to heat up the cat like an ordinary engine, and if your trips are 5 miles or less it's a waste.
3) Another area where the hybrid is not worth it is in very cold winter weather. The gas engine runs to generate heat and defrost so you still burn a lot of gas, same as a normal car.
4) Where it shines is in boulevard and stop&go driving. In these circumstances the battery is used as a quick give-and-take and also absorbs braking energy. This is why it actually was rated higher in city driving than in highway driving. I regular got low to mid 40s while driving it hard (I do NOT drive like a "typical" Prius driver, life's too short!) in town. Nothing else touches that.
5) Batteries typically last 200K miles or more. Taxis have been getting 300K-- the car wears out before the battery. They used to cost $5K at the dealer but with over a million Priuses on the road there are accidents and used batteries for under $1K. My brother replaced his at 150K for $1000 and they wondered why he needed it so soon.
6) Companies are also replacing single bad cells cheap, rather than the whole battery.
7) This is a little arcane, but the hybrid drive is a wonder. It's a CVT that used electrical fields in the motor/generators to effectively change the ratio, using a planetary gearset like used in an auto tranny. But there are no brake bands or any other friction surfaces. All gears are in constant mesh-- no clutches or syncros. Other than bearings, which last forever, there are no wearout modes! So for folks like me that keep cars forever, the cost of the battery swap works out to less then same cost of the tranny I will not have to rebuild at 200K miles.
So the bottom line is that if you keep cars a long time, and drive city or boulevards, and drive an average number of miles, the Prius makes sense with a payback of something like 4-6 years.
But if you drive high speeds, or mostly in very cold weather, or for very short trips, it's a waste to buy a hybrid.
These cars are no panacea, but the bogus environmental and battery issues alleged by Detroit just ain't true. |
We used to have a Prius in our home and it was a fine car to drive. Our 2002 used to get around 42mpg city and 50 mpg freeway. Very respectable for a 4 door sedan that could actually seat 4 adults. My wife's main driver now is a 2012 MX-5 with power hard top - our child is grown and doing well on his own.
The only thing I would point out is that the Prius engine is based on the newer Echo/Yaris block, not the larger Corolla engine. It is sub-2 liter and uses a slightly offset crank in place of offset wrist pins to even the effects of piston slap. The Prius version has a lower rpm limit, very high static compression Atkinson cycle, and no power fuel enrichment in the fuel curve. The engine isn't started until oil pressure is established. Newer models no longer have a "fan belt" to replace.
_________________
| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16859
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
They will pass. Remember, they tested clean but it was on the road they polluted more. The fix isn't to let them pollute during testing, but to pollute LESS while actually driving. The impact may be a drop in mileage, performance, or smoothness. |
it's no different than the air cooled FI assholes tweeking timing/ AFM's to pass the test and then go out and reset everything
I know a guy who knows a guy...the diesel in question polluted more under WOT and HARD hill pulls..... hardly anyone goes WOT...
it isn't the monster the media is trying to portray...wait...others will have the light shed on them as well.
I have seen cars with blown head gaskets PASS the test because the ECU had made all of it's readiness monitors complete...
furthermore OE level diagnostics CAN set readiness monitors right in the parking lot of a test station...the whole program is corrupt and this is why the automotive industry as a whole has a black eye...
funny how people listen to a stuffed suit in Washington that has no idea (or care to even educate themselves) over guys in the trenches working on modern day toilet bowls we call cars.....
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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coad
Samba Scapegoat
Joined: September 12, 2002
Posts: 7552
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| I have never talked to a Prius owner that has had rave reviews about their gas millage. Almost universally they have said something along the lines of "I don't get anywhere near what I thought I would" why? because at even 1 year old the battery health has declined so much that it is taking way more power to charge and is in turn using way more gas. So people end up with a car that only make 25 mpg AND has the toxic battery. |
I've driven my Prius for 9+ years and 150,000+ miles, and my battery is still performing like new according to the diagnostics. I'm also getting better mileage now than I did when it was new.
I think you're talking to the wrong Prius owners. |
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Vanhag
Samba Mortician
Joined: June 29, 2003
Posts: 2606
Location: Desert Coast
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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EmissiOWNED!!
_________________
CU05 w/HBB
HOODRIDANCE |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33991
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| coad wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I have never talked to a Prius owner that has had rave reviews about their gas millage. Almost universally they have said something along the lines of "I don't get anywhere near what I thought I would" why? because at even 1 year old the battery health has declined so much that it is taking way more power to charge and is in turn using way more gas. So people end up with a car that only make 25 mpg AND has the toxic battery. |
I've driven my Prius for 9+ years and 150,000+ miles, and my battery is still performing like new according to the diagnostics. I'm also getting better mileage now than I did when it was new.
I think you're talking to the wrong Prius owners. |
Mine is over 10 years old and over 150K miles, but runs like new including MPG. The battery is only cycled between 40% and 60%, not 0% to 100%, so it does not "tire" from deep charge/discharge cycles. That's why it will only drive about half a mile at most on pure EV mode-- it's a very small energy storage amount but it makes the very most of it with smart software and gearing. This is for the regular Prius, not the plug-in version. |
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Skip Laubach
Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2011
Posts: 237
Location: Elgin, Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:48 am Post subject: |
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Back to the matter at hand...so do the new EA288 with adblue additive system still emit 40x NOX? Seems a comment was made above that the latest tdi's are in not guilty.
I have a 2015 Golf Sportwagen, bought in May. Thought it was the perfect commuter car up until last Thursday.
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Skip
1984 Westy 1.9 case WBXR Manual (now with 2200cc GoWesty kit)
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4091
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:34 am Post subject: |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| coad wrote: |
| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
| I have never talked to a Prius owner that has had rave reviews about their gas millage. Almost universally they have said something along the lines of "I don't get anywhere near what I thought I would" why? because at even 1 year old the battery health has declined so much that it is taking way more power to charge and is in turn using way more gas. So people end up with a car that only make 25 mpg AND has the toxic battery. |
I've driven my Prius for 9+ years and 150,000+ miles, and my battery is still performing like new according to the diagnostics. I'm also getting better mileage now than I did when it was new.
I think you're talking to the wrong Prius owners. |
Mine is over 10 years old and over 150K miles, but runs like new including MPG. The battery is only cycled between 40% and 60%, not 0% to 100%, so it does not "tire" from deep charge/discharge cycles. That's why it will only drive about half a mile at most on pure EV mode-- it's a very small energy storage amount but it makes the very most of it with smart software and gearing. This is for the regular Prius, not the plug-in version. |
Mine is going on three years old and I have none of the "issues" that Dan Ruddock listed. Basically because they are untrue FUD made up by people with an ax to grind.
If nothing else, I am happy to use far less gasoline than I used to. For some reason I have a hard time knowing that I am supporting dictatorial regimes with terrible human rights issues when I fill up my tank. I am still supporting them but they are getting a lot less money from me.
_________________
Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld
Last edited by splitjunkie on Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4091
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
They will pass. Remember, they tested clean but it was on the road they polluted more. The fix isn't to let them pollute during testing, but to pollute LESS while actually driving. The impact may be a drop in mileage, performance, or smoothness. |
it's no different than the air cooled FI assholes tweeking timing/ AFM's to pass the test and then go out and reset everything
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It's completely different. Those assholes that you speak of are not manufacturers. They are not bound by the clean air regulations the same way a manufacturer is. VW chose to break the law. Pure and simple. It may be a silly law or not depending on how you feel about things but it is the law.
If you don't like the speed limit and choose to drive faster, you are choosing to break the law. If you get pulled over you will get a ticket. If you tell the cop that you think it is a stupid speed limit, he will laugh at you as he hands you the ticket. VW chose to cheat the law and got caught. Saying it is a stupid law isn't going to get them anywhere but might get them bigger fines.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33991
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
Mine is going on three years old and I have none of the "issues" that KTPhil listed. Basically because they are untrue FUD made up by people with an ax to grind.
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Please check your citations and edit your post, since I was not the one listing "issues." I think you meant another poster. I have no issues (well, not with the Prius, anyway!).
I was listing facts about how the Prius is designed, the way it manages battery energy, and also the driving conditions under which the design excels or doesn't. |
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splitjunkie
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 4091
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| splitjunkie wrote: |
Mine is going on three years old and I have none of the "issues" that KTPhil listed. Basically because they are untrue FUD made up by people with an ax to grind.
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Please check your citations and edit your post, since I was not the one listing "issues." I think you meant another poster. I have no issues (well, not with the Prius, anyway!).
I was listing facts about how the Prius is designed, the way it manages battery energy, and also the driving conditions under which the design excels or doesn't. |
Sorry about that. I have corrected the original quote and my reference.
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Chris
You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| so... does the "fix" now turn these cars into turds of the past?? |
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aircooledguy
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2003
Posts: 208
Location: Gridley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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What's really going in favor of VWOA right now is the legendary American short attention span. If you really think about the way
HEY!! What was that!?!
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'68 Roadrunner Double Door Camper
'55 Porsche Spyder replica by Beck |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 33991
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| splitjunkie wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
| splitjunkie wrote: |
Mine is going on three years old and I have none of the "issues" that KTPhil listed. Basically because they are untrue FUD made up by people with an ax to grind.
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Please check your citations and edit your post, since I was not the one listing "issues." I think you meant another poster. I have no issues (well, not with the Prius, anyway!).
I was listing facts about how the Prius is designed, the way it manages battery energy, and also the driving conditions under which the design excels or doesn't. |
Sorry about that. I have corrected the original quote and my reference. |
Thanks! |
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My57Oval
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2005
Posts: 624
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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You know what, I think most #s manufacturers put out are bunk.
In the 50/60s VW was telling people they would get 30 MPG in a Beetle. BS. Maybe 25 if you were lucky.
I have a 2008 GLI. I drive it fairly lightly, mostly around town, but have driven it long distances as well. Never, since I have owned it, has it given me the MPG as advertised. And who could even believe the computer systems MPG information anyway. If you do your a fool in my book.
I've always considered myself a VW guy, was proud of the heritage, the products. Would never have thought of buying anything else. Now, they've lost me. It's just another car manufacturer. They lost their soul years ago, but I guess I knew that.
But I'll keep my Oval, to remind me what made the company what it used to be. Plus I like it! |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16859
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2015 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/arb_iuc_2015_09_25_final_signed_letter.pdf
CA is on it like stink on shit...there is a surprise...
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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