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pyrOman Fire Master
Joined: July 21, 2003 Posts: 12400 Location: Over 2002 posts deleted!
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:20 am Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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[email protected] wrote: |
A coworker of mine LOVES his TDI, and has no interest in selling back to VW, or getting it "fixed". Now what? I am sure there are many others thinking the same thing. |
Same here, my coworker bought it used AND knowing there were "issues" with the emissions deal. He just got the offer... either buy back for around $15k or "fix it" and a cash offer of $5k. He really likes it so is leaning on getting it fixed and keep it.
Me, on the other hand, the last new vw I had was a Fox. Quite the weak ass POS car. Even got a recall on it though I had it for little more than one year. Never again! _________________ Some people are so busy being clever they don't have time enough to be wise. |
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vwinnovator Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 1555 Location: Still doing it in the back of your VW
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:40 am Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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KTPhil wrote: |
Cali_Army_Guy wrote: |
KTPhil wrote: |
[email protected] wrote: |
A coworker of mine LOVES his TDI, and has no interest in selling back to VW, or getting it "fixed". Now what? I am sure there are many others thinking the same thing. |
In most (if not all) states, you will fail your next smog test if it is not "fixed," and won't be able to renew the registration. |
How will they know if it's fixed or not? It'll pass the test in the non fixed condition obviously. Will the smog shop be able to tell what version of software your car has?
If I owned one I'd just find a shop willing to cheat like I did when I had my WS6 Trans Am. $200 every two years and it passes. Despite having headers, no cats, aftermarket cam, etc. Weird |
Testing is far more sophisticated, and "cheater shops" are soon out of business. They do statistical analysis of test results and the cheaters stick out like a sore thumb.
Testing includes a reading go software versions through the port, and if yours isn't updated, you flunk before they start the engine.
Cheating used to be easy, then it got hard, and now it's darn near impossible, at least in California.
And with the reputation the VW diesels have, they will be out to spot them. |
Yep.
my kids 2003 honda had a CEL on. CAT code. cleared it and she took it for emission test. they plugged in and sent her away with a "retest" date. said no data present, so couldn't pass it. even without a CEL on you may not pass these days... |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16803 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:24 am Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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vwinnovator wrote: |
KTPhil wrote: |
Cali_Army_Guy wrote: |
KTPhil wrote: |
[email protected] wrote: |
A coworker of mine LOVES his TDI, and has no interest in selling back to VW, or getting it "fixed". Now what? I am sure there are many others thinking the same thing. |
In most (if not all) states, you will fail your next smog test if it is not "fixed," and won't be able to renew the registration. |
How will they know if it's fixed or not? It'll pass the test in the non fixed condition obviously. Will the smog shop be able to tell what version of software your car has?
If I owned one I'd just find a shop willing to cheat like I did when I had my WS6 Trans Am. $200 every two years and it passes. Despite having headers, no cats, aftermarket cam, etc. Weird |
Testing is far more sophisticated, and "cheater shops" are soon out of business. They do statistical analysis of test results and the cheaters stick out like a sore thumb.
Testing includes a reading go software versions through the port, and if yours isn't updated, you flunk before they start the engine.
Cheating used to be easy, then it got hard, and now it's darn near impossible, at least in California.
And with the reputation the VW diesels have, they will be out to spot them. |
Yep.
my kids 2003 honda had a CEL on. CAT code. cleared it and she took it for emission test. they plugged in and sent her away with a "retest" date. said no data present, so couldn't pass it. even without a CEL on you may not pass these days... |
that has zero to do with s/w....the readiness monitors were not set, therefore it flunked. when you kill a CEL or change a battery all of the systems have to run tests. some cars are ez to set, others can takes 100's of miles.
if your catalyst failed and won't run, neither will any others. catalyst and EVAP are generally the very first to run, with misfire counters being at the top of the list...
sorry to say this, but no emission equipment on the planet can tell s/w version of the car. perhaps someday, but there are dozens of revisions/updates along the way and there is no way every car by every mfgr would be on a central database. perhaps some day, but not any time soon. _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:56 am Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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But you've got to ask yourself one question... do I feel lucky?
I've checked SW versions through the car's own data screen, so I presume the new testers can do likewise through the rest port. In California they check pretty thoroughly before they even start the car. And with all the publicity over the VW scandal, I bet they have specific instructions to find out.
This may be a state-by-state thing, though. CARB governs this is Cali, and they are maniacal. They instituted the real-time uploading of testing data to a central database, where data analysis will sow, for example, if a shop is passing a higher percentage of a particular model, as compared to averages, and then the real analysis goes deeper to find cheating patterns.
It used to be easy to fool the testers. Back when VW FI was tricky for shops, some had a "magic MPS" that they would hook up, with an allen key to turn to get it to pass; then they'd put yours back on. Tricks like this won't work anymore! The number crunchers will get you.
Like Ben Harp said to Johnny Utah, "systematic data based analysis" catches the bad guys, whether bank robbers or smog cheats.
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galencurrington Samba Member
Joined: March 16, 2004 Posts: 426 Location: bowling green, ky
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Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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I still think it's funny that vw is getting the sharp end of the stick when nobody has died. yet over 11 people have died because of the airbag. just last week someone died because of the airbag. does anyone see the irony in that. _________________ "asking and getting are two different things" |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33883 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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They are getting hammered probably because they knew about it. Did Takata know their airbags would fail? (I'm actually asking; I do not know).
I posted about the irony go SoCalGas getting what amounts to a pass when they dumped many times more pollutants in the air, and it was concentrated in one neighborhood, driving them from their homes and dropping home values like a stone.
Yes, VW should be punished, but who about a little evenhandedness? |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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KTPhil wrote: |
They are getting hammered probably because they knew about it. Did Takata know their airbags would fail? (I'm actually asking; I do not know).
I posted about the irony go SoCalGas getting what amounts to a pass when they dumped many times more pollutants in the air, and it was concentrated in one neighborhood, driving them from their homes and dropping home values like a stone.
Yes, VW should be punished, but who about a little evenhandedness? |
Takata will get theirs. I have some industry acquaintances who ...shall we say...supply certain raw materials that go into Takata airbags and other products. I hear a bit of the banter here and there .
The problem Takata will encounter will be in their process controls and age testing documentation and practices. The problem was that the airbag propellant was ammonimum nitrate based.
Ammonimum nitrate based pyrotechnics are KNOWN to suffer age and storage condition related volitility issues. They change chemically over time.
This is known. Their formulation was in theory...supposed to have addressed that problem. But.....their rapid age testing program either didnt catch it, was not robust enough in scope.....or its possible that the chemical change that caused the volitility change....cannot be reproduced through rapid ageing.....and is only a product of time based ageing.....kinda like you can't accelerate the production of petrified wood by any outside means.
Its not clear yet what Takata knew when. But....they did know that the propellant was sensitive to high temp conditions......and they eitjer gambled.....or underestimated. A common engineering blindness.
VW is getting hammered...as you mention...because they knew. The really sad thing is all of the whining and potential class action about making VW pay for "environmental" damage.
Thats hilarious. A business associate of mine who works in the EPA air quality permitting end of the industry...sat down last year when this started.....and worked up over lunch.....a quick calculation ...based on the advertized ppm allowable for the models in question.....of sulfur diox particulate and NOX output....multiplied it by double average yearly mileage and 1.5 million cars.....and multiplied in the real world findings of West Virginia Tech....the guys who did the testing...
.........and found the total of particulates and NOX would be about equal to less than one week total ouput from a SINGLE 600mw coal fired power plant. Less than a week....about five days worth..... .
The actual test findings by WVT.....only find that these cars have the elevated polution levels....at full throttle.....high rpm shift points and when traveling at high speeds under load....not cruising.
VW was stupid....because the emmisions numbers match those found in cars withe same technology used ..... BMW and Mercedes to mention a couple ....when the Urea injector system is disabled. All they had to do is install the urea injector system and tweak the software. They would have passed just like BMW and MB.
They were trying to make higher sales #s to reach critical sales mass. The sales lure was that once out of warranty.....the VW would not need the every other year $250+ dollar urea inkection system service......that and it got equal or better performance and emissions than the same type of system's used by BMW and MB.....and not needing the urea system it was touted as the most advanced "green" technology of the direct injection turbo diesel market.
The interesting thing...is that the vast majority of the "offending" vehicles....pass emissions in Germany. Thats because they are interested in the C02 emmisions (which the TDi's pass with flying colors) as a controlled green house gas emmission....and not interested as much in the NOX and particulates levels...which are a controlled smog producing emission product here in the US. Ray |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16754 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:12 am Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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Interesting article on this in the December 2016 Motor Trend..... _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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itskyle Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2013 Posts: 634 Location: Plainfield, IN
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Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:39 am Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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galencurrington wrote: |
I still think it's funny that vw is getting the sharp end of the stick when nobody has died. yet over 11 people have died because of the airbag. just last week someone died because of the airbag. does anyone see the irony in that. |
Consider that the us government wants airbags in any new vehicle sold, I think there is a law for at least front air bags.
Others have mentioned car pollution vs coal power plant pollution...
I think the real story here is trying to put the hurt to vw, even though most fus think that vw doesn't often need help in that arena anymore.
Kyle _________________ --
69 or 72 Autostick Bug current
66 Bug (We both miss it)
74 SuperBeetle Auto Stick (I miss that car)
73 SquareBack, Straight Stick (Wife misses this one.) |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:50 am Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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itskyle wrote: |
galencurrington wrote: |
I still think it's funny that vw is getting the sharp end of the stick when nobody has died. yet over 11 people have died because of the airbag. just last week someone died because of the airbag. does anyone see the irony in that. |
Consider that the us government wants airbags in any new vehicle sold, I think there is a law for at least front air bags.
Others have mentioned car pollution vs coal power plant pollution...
I think the real story here is trying to put the hurt to vw, even though most fus think that vw doesn't often need help in that arena anymore.
Kyle |
Yes, DOT regulations specify that there will be no passenger "cars" allowed to be imported and used on US roads without airbags.
Its started with greed from VW's end....it was about sales....and continues with greed on the part of a zillion lawyers...you can see ads everywhere....trying to get in on class actions for a piece of the money.
VW is working on the buyback plan...and cash awards/penalties...but you see no end to talk about class actions for everything from environmental damage to personal/mental damages for owners who are "hurt" because they were lied to or were trying to be green.... ...if they were actually REALLY trying to be green...they would have bought a Prius.
What they really bought was a European built and designed vehicle with superb amenities, world class fit and finish, a way above average level of performance and handling, superb gas mileage (cheap to drive)...for a price that is about 40% less than anything else in the market segment...oh....and just happens to be pretty damn green...even at its higher pollution level.
My comment about coal fired power plant pollution was simply a good illustration of the piddling, minuscule small amount that ANY environmental damage caused by the extra pollution from these vehicles could have caused.
Most probably....more environmental damage is actually being done by far...from many of the owners of these vehicles who say they bought them because they were "GREEN"....if you simply look in their homes to find out that they bought hook, line and sinker into the "compact fluorescent light" debacle....which at 2016 stats...is 2.5 BILLION bulbs with 5 milligrams each of mercury content.
Only roughly 40% are recycled properly.....thats about 16,500 pounds of mercury into the landfills and the water table.
VW was stupid and should pay for it.....but only for whats fair. Ray |
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13385 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:32 am Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
itskyle wrote: |
galencurrington wrote: |
I still think it's funny that vw is getting the sharp end of the stick when nobody has died. yet over 11 people have died because of the airbag. just last week someone died because of the airbag. does anyone see the irony in that. |
Consider that the us government wants airbags in any new vehicle sold, I think there is a law for at least front air bags.
Others have mentioned car pollution vs coal power plant pollution...
I think the real story here is trying to put the hurt to vw, even though most fus think that vw doesn't often need help in that arena anymore.
Kyle |
VW was stupid and should pay for it.....but only for whats fair. Ray |
As should the ex-VW CEO who "resigned" with I'm sure is a spectacular golden parachute along with the other top executives who KNEW damn well this fraud was taking place.
Sadly, the CEO's seem to always get away with it without being charged as a criminal act. Think the recently departed CEO of Well Fargo. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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weisswurst Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2013 Posts: 233 Location: south florida
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Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:27 am Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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Cali_Army_Guy wrote: |
weisswurst wrote: |
I got my buyback amount today on our 09 tdi wagon and it's 10K short of what we paid back then but the saddest part is I really can't buy another one right now if I wanted to because they can't sell any yet.
Also there is no replacement product from any other automaker in diesel for the price (even new price) because VW/Audi basically cornered the market it seems.
really not happy right now....
also our last payment is next month and it would have been paid off so VW got my interest on payments. |
Why would you sell it? It's almost paid off. If I had a TDI there's no chance I'd sell it. |
We have a 09, the modification is a flash software (so they think) which means no hardware installed and the new software activates an emissions system that is dormant until the car is on a dyno with the back wheels not moving to show the "clean" rating it passed with. after the flash it will be on all the time and I can't imagine that going anywhere but a quick trip to repairtown with that kind of use being on all the time instead of bypassed as it is now! the average emmissions repair is 3-5 K if you need to replace stuff I have been told. also a new result of the flash they say is a serious reduction in mileage and power (why we bought the car and paid the diesel upcharge) I also have the 120K timing belt service coming up and wanted to use the dealer so hiding from them is not a great option.
all in all it's not a great thing for us it seems for this year so I guess I'm taking the buyback (2/3 of the cost I paid) and joining the gas crowd again reluctantly... |
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GArBa Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2014 Posts: 2103 Location: Milano, Italy
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Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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on a partially related matter, in this month's issue of "quattroruote", a renowned italian motoring magazine, they put a used tiguan through a dyno and emissions test before and after the euro software-only fix. the results showed an increased amount of NOx during the homologation cycle (always within the Euro5 limis) and a reduction (about one third less) during real-life driving conditions. fuel consumption went also down and dirving was pretty much the same.
an US fix will likely be different though, given the more strict limits imposed on NOx. _________________ cars:
'97 type 1 1600i
'14 type AA Seat Mii (sadly dead after 270.000 km)
'22 type C1 T-Cross
'23 type AC3 Hyundai I10 (VW no longer makes small cars!)
-------------------------
moped:
'82 Benelli Magnum 3v |
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weisswurst Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2013 Posts: 233 Location: south florida
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Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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GArBa wrote: |
on a partially related matter, in this month's issue of "quattroruote", a renowned italian motoring magazine, they put a used tiguan through a dyno and emissions test before and after the euro software-only fix. the results showed an increased amount of NOx during the homologation cycle (always within the Euro5 limis) and a reduction (about one third less) during real-life driving conditions. fuel consumption went also down and dirving was pretty much the same.
an US fix will likely be different though, given the more strict limits imposed on NOx. |
that would explain what 2 friends who have TDI's told me on a recent trip to Germany.
They said they were required to get a flash update and they were receiving no compensation, (here it is 5K for that) |
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GArBa Samba Member
Joined: January 27, 2014 Posts: 2103 Location: Milano, Italy
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Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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well, actually, most figures in this test improved after the re-mapping. fuel consumption, for example, went down an impressive 14% in urban environment (more egr i guess). acceleration improved too, with 0.4 seconds less between 0-100km/h. only figure that got worse, is 0.3seconds more in the pickup time between 30-60km/h in third gear.
also, in EU every other car is a diesel and then some more, so vw's didn't have to use all that "clean diesel" marketing they used sateside. _________________ cars:
'97 type 1 1600i
'14 type AA Seat Mii (sadly dead after 270.000 km)
'22 type C1 T-Cross
'23 type AC3 Hyundai I10 (VW no longer makes small cars!)
-------------------------
moped:
'82 Benelli Magnum 3v |
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weisswurst Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2013 Posts: 233 Location: south florida
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:23 am Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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weisswurst wrote: |
GArBa wrote: |
on a partially related matter, in this month's issue of "quattroruote", a renowned italian motoring magazine, they put a used tiguan through a dyno and emissions test before and after the euro software-only fix. the results showed an increased amount of NOx during the homologation cycle (always within the Euro5 limis) and a reduction (about one third less) during real-life driving conditions. fuel consumption went also down and dirving was pretty much the same.
an US fix will likely be different though, given the more strict limits imposed on NOx. |
that would explain what 2 friends who have TDI's told me on a recent trip to Germany.
They said they were required to get a flash update and they were receiving no compensation, (here it is 5K for that) |
I went to Germany in August for a beerfest and can confirm that is true.
mods are scheduled and no compensation whatsoever.
I was shocked when I heard that while hanging out with some local farmers that owned TDIs |
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weisswurst Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2013 Posts: 233 Location: south florida
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Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:28 am Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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update, I have received the email for my appt for the wagon.
I am actually thinking about thinning my classic diesel herd (vanagons) because we are not enjoying the car shows since this issue has come up.
Thinking of looking at some diesel unimogs to replace my diesel vanagon VW single and double cab use (since we are mostly doing farm chores anyway with them) I really never thought I would say that but I just did... |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 6985 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:53 am Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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weisswurst wrote: |
update, I have received the email for my appt for the wagon.
I am actually thinking about thinning my classic diesel herd (vanagons) because we are not enjoying the car shows since this issue has come up.
Thinking of looking at some diesel unimogs to replace my diesel vanagon VW single and double cab use (since we are mostly doing farm chores anyway with them) I really never thought I would say that but I just did... |
I'm failing to follow the logic here. Why would you make the decision to get rid of the Vanagons based on the emissions issue the modern VW diesels are having? That makes about as much sense as throwing away your perfectly fine cassette player and tape collection because you don't like how the cardboard sleeve new CDs come in tends to scratch the disc. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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weisswurst Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2013 Posts: 233 Location: south florida
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Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:57 am Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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sorry for the late response but have not been putting the "time" in on the hobby lately.
Our main reason is my fleet is all diesel and it seems when we park now at a gathering all the public want to do is ask us "have you heard about the vw scandal?" it is just over and over and our general vibe is not what it used to be so if my girls can make someone else happier then I am considering moving on to another diesel based hobby. Plus my wife has decided she doesn't want her bug anymore either it seems.
Sorry if I sound like a downer just sharing my thoughts aloud here. |
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ach60 Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2001 Posts: 4139 Location: Santa Maria
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Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:21 pm Post subject: Re: VW cheating on diesel emissions..... |
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mukluk wrote: |
weisswurst wrote: |
update, I have received the email for my appt for the wagon.
I am actually thinking about thinning my classic diesel herd (vanagons) because we are not enjoying the car shows since this issue has come up.
Thinking of looking at some diesel unimogs to replace my diesel vanagon VW single and double cab use (since we are mostly doing farm chores anyway with them) I really never thought I would say that but I just did... |
I'm failing to follow the logic here. Why would you make the decision to get rid of the Vanagons based on the emissions issue the modern VW diesels are having? That makes about as much sense as throwing away your perfectly fine cassette player and tape collection because you don't like how the cardboard sleeve new CDs come in tends to scratch the disc. |
Sometimes we just age out of our vehicles, or our hobbies. _________________ Good Luck
Al |
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