Camshaft (whole engine - AN) question

[Kharon8]

Hello people!

For starters, the Problem(TM) (at least for me, please bear with me):

Correct engine is missing and I'm having a 2-liter bus engine. It mostly fits in and the car moves, but not much else.

The car is a '74 euro-spec 412 4-door sedan , which means it should have twin carburetors, 1800cc engine with high-compression pistons (only in Europe) and 85hp (DIN), engine code AN.

This car has also automatic gearbox and that's a combination which means it will be very hard to find an engine that would correct one for this car: A '74 euro model with automatic gearbox. Not a common version at all.

The engine I have now is also quite worn and needs a rebuild anyway so swapping it to another worn engine (like 1800cc AN) wouldn't hurt me much: Cost of rebuild is almost the same.

On paper I could build a technically correct engine (almost at least) if I knew the part numbers for pistons, camshaft and distributor: Those are the major differences.

But even that is a problem as ~all part books I've managed to find, stop to 1971 or 1972, not much help in this case. I know that I can find "high compression" and "flat top" "stock" pistons for a 1800cc engine so I'm assuming those are both correct, but high compression ones are the ones I should have. (And yes, assumptions are dangerous.)

But the other parts ... that's not so easy when you don't even the part numbers/specs.

So the Question(TM):
Does anyone have a part book which covers these parts for a '74 euro spec model and would be kind enough to check the numbers?

Or the specs for the cam?

Also: If there are other differences (outside displacement/fuel injection to 1700cc US-spec engine) I'd like to hear about them.

I've read quite many type4-engine articles here in thesamba and shoptalkforums, but most people run these engines on buses and the usage is quite different so most of the camshaft discussions are a bit off. Usually those don't go to nitpicky details, like part numbers, either.

If someone has this kind of engine I'm of course interested. I've contacted some of the local 4-owners about this and they just wished me good luck.

Well .... they are correct of course but it doesn't stop me from trying.
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Kharon -- '62 typ1, '63 typ14, '61 typ21, '65 typ34, '74 412, '75 typ26
FVWA.fi support group.

[raygreenwood]

I will try to get you what you need.

Question: did this car originally come with the automatic transmission or did it fome from another vehicle? This is moderately important as there were numerous hydarulic valve body and vacuum combinations . These were generally set up to match the characteristics of the engine they were mated to. Swapping around can cause some drivability issues....but should becable to be adjusted around.

The Euro spec carbed 1.8 as you note.....had 8.6:1 compression. And 41 x 34 valves.

As the 1.7L generated 82hp .....much of which was a direct combination of higher compression (8.2:1 as compared to 7.3:1 in the California D-jet injected models)....and the D-jet injection. .....in the carbed 1.7L fof 411, the early grind camshaft that was the same for early injection was used along with 7.8:1 compression. With this combination the carbed 1.7l generated 68hp.

The D-jet camshaft will work fine with carbs.....but is not really optimized for them. I have heard that the camshaft for the Euro spec 1.8L is identical to the cam for the AN series motor of the Euro spec Porsche 914 which ran the same hp numbers, same compression ratio (8.6:1) and the same 40 PDSIT carburettors.

I can check to be sure...but i believe the Web Cam part # most used on a stock AN 1.8L is the web 86 also listed as 00-142.
Later i should be able to pull up the factory 1974 part #....but i would not use any of the factory cams. They were well made but a poor design for breathing and cooling.
You will also have a very hard time finding one with lifters that match and are safe to use.
Ray

[Kharon8]

Thanks Ray, excellent info again.

Yes, originally an automatic, that's why I was asking.

And of course it really doesn't match to the engine it now has, the engine being all wrong: Automatic works but IMHO it could work better.

I've heard stories about smooth gear changes, from reliable sources, so those should exist.

I got a manual gearbox and at least most of the manual- related parts with the car (pedal assembly, clutch, gear selector shaft and clutch pedal cylinder) as spare parts if I ever want to change it to manual, but so far I like the automatic, I'm a lazy guy.

The point about lifters is very good and something I've quite totally forgotten as basically a non-issue normally.

But lo and behold: One of my WTB-advertisements found an AN- engine.

The (very local, <10 miles) seller said he can't remember what parts it has inside, but it wasn't very expensive either, so I'll go and have a look once the winter sets in: No hurry then.

One thing he remembers: It's from an automatic and has most (all perhaps) of the accessories still attached.

If I'm lucky it has a pair of PSDIT40s and big valves in heads ... just like a lottery win, right?

Something I didn't expect so soon, that's for sure.

Anyway, I promised to swap it to my current engine (and some money) if it has at least most of the stuff an AN-engine should.

Next: The camshaft.

I believe you when you say it's not too good but that bring us some major questions, like: What kind of camshaft I should use?

Most discussions I could find about camshafts (in a type 4 engine) are bus related and don't really apply to much lighter (and faster) 412.

Any spesific links?

(I'll do a search here (4xx-forum) and read all I can find: The winter is long, dark and cold, so I'll have plenty of time. It's already only +2C/35F here in North, no season to do anything car-related outside. )
_________________
Kharon -- '62 typ1, '63 typ14, '61 typ21, '65 typ34, '74 412, '75 typ26
FVWA.fi support group.

[raygreenwood]

Also go to the Shoptalk Forums and look at the type4rum, 411/412 forum and the 914 forum. Lots of good people for just tech. The folks on the type 4rum know alot more about non-bus type 4 tech than those here.

I am a fuel injection guy. I have a lot less experience with type 4 and carbs. Ask for Piledriver over on the STF.

Webcam makes pretty much replacement camshafts.....some of the best. The one I listed is actually a 95% coppy of the original 914 camshaft with small but significant improvements. The lifters they sell are matched to their cam which is critical.

For instance.....the webcam #73....is their version of the stock 411/412 for the D-jet injection. It maintains the very critical valve timing and lobe center to run D-jet.....but with slightly more lift and duration. It does this by going back to the timing from the V-series cams used from 1968 to 1971. Excellent cam.

You need a different cam than the web 73.. Webcam makes one just for it.

Also....Jake Raby designed numerous camshafts for type 4. Many of these versions are sold by the type 4 store. They are all based on Web blanks and lifters but have special improved and proven grinds.
The one I have and will be using in my build fkming up....again for D-jet.....is the Raby 9550.....its basically a web 73....but has a split pattern so it has a bit more exhaust overlap to run the heads cooler. Since the time i bought that cam he has also fielded a design called the 9590 that is the same but with certain optimizjng to run better with ethanol fuels.

Ask on thr STF about which webcam and which Raby cams you need. There are also a couple from European motorworks that may be a good fit. Those people know more about carbed cams than I do. Ray

[Kharon8]

Thanks Ray, that makes a lot of sense.

This will progress some time at winter when I get my hands on the new engine and can see what accessories it has.
_________________
Kharon -- '62 typ1, '63 typ14, '61 typ21, '65 typ34, '74 412, '75 typ26
FVWA.fi support group.

[Kharon8]

An update to this: New old engine bought and now in the trunk and it looks like it has been sitting in a barn last 20 years. And it's stuck. I hope there's more salvable parts in it than just the block.

(Pictures will follow: I was ready to take them yesterday and then the camera batteries died on me, damn.)

But it has correct engine code and correct carburators for this engine (B 40 PDSIT says the casting).

Anyway, this engine hasn't been in use in ages so I have to open it (at least partially) and see how bad it from inside.

It's also from an automatic so it should have correct distributor and camshaft for me.

Although from a Variant (?), as it has the oil filler tube on the back and not on top like sedan. Easy to fix at rebuild.
_________________
Kharon -- '62 typ1, '63 typ14, '61 typ21, '65 typ34, '74 412, '75 typ26
FVWA.fi support group.

[Kharon8]

Just an update: Some pictures of the engine and (the other) carburetor disassembled.

http://kharon.suomiforum.com/www/412/mosa/
_________________
Kharon -- '62 typ1, '63 typ14, '61 typ21, '65 typ34, '74 412, '75 typ26
FVWA.fi support group.

[raygreenwood]

Nice work! Coming along! Ray

[Kharon8]

Not much progress in winter as I didn't find a garage for the job (and I already have one engine inside), but now it's summer again and we can do stuff outside (actually in trunk, as you can see), nice. Currently +12C (53F), that's not much, but we had two weeks about +23C (73F), that was nice.

Disassembly has progressed almost to the block, one piston is stuck and one bolt didn't want to open, but nothing major so far. Everything is just rusty and dusty and frankly, looks quite horrible.

We'll see how much of this is salvable and/or how much work it requires.

http://kharon.suomiforum.com/www/412/mosa/#newest
_________________
Kharon -- '62 typ1, '63 typ14, '61 typ21, '65 typ34, '74 412, '75 typ26
FVWA.fi support group.

[raygreenwood]

[Kharon8]

Update to this:

93mm domed pistons (AN spesific) basically do not exist anymore. Duh.

Dished lower the compression a bit too much (should be 8.5:1) so I'll probably go to 96mm flat top pistons.

Meanwhile I had the engine tin (with a bunch of smaller parts) and fan box sand blasted and painted, they look much better now.

http://kharon.suomiforum.com/www/412/mosa/IMG_4241.jpg
http://kharon.suomiforum.com/www/412/mosa/IMG_4242.jpg

Fan box has serious corrosion on air outlets (bottom in pic), I don't know yet what to do to that, if anything.

Anyway, nice looking parts are always progress.
_________________
Kharon -- '62 typ1, '63 typ14, '61 typ21, '65 typ34, '74 412, '75 typ26
FVWA.fi support group.

[raygreenwood]

[Kharon8]

Hello Ray!

Good point with the rubber, I was thinking only sealant or something like that. Permatex Supracopper can stand 300C, plenty enough for this spot, but of course not enough by itself.

I think piece of thin-walled silicone hose could also be used and it would stay put on its own ... no idea if suitable hose exists, I have to look.

No hurry anyway, lot of work needs to be done first. (Like swapping camshafts for my other hobby car, more urgent job.)
_________________
Kharon -- '62 typ1, '63 typ14, '61 typ21, '65 typ34, '74 412, '75 typ26
FVWA.fi support group.

[raygreenwood]