| Author |
Message |
Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
|
 Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:48 am Post subject: Getting a 64 back on the road. |
 |
|
In another thread I posted about my 64 beetle not running. My plan was to contact a mobile mechanic to get it up and running but after speaking with a local parts store, I have been convinced to try and get it up and running more or less on my own if possible.
Initially, when I got the Bug it would start with help from a jump from another vehicle. I should probably note that the engine is a 1300 and still on a 6v system. The battery is new, but when I checked it after receiving it, noticed the water levels were low and have since topped it off. Been years since I owned a non-maintenance battery, but remember what to do. So as mentioned, it ran somewhat when I got it, but has now stopped. This happened after getting it started at one point and driving it around the neighborhood a bit. It was not idling very well and running pretty rough, but I assumed it was from sitting for so long. From my understanding the car hadn't been on the road since possibly the mid 80's. The previous owner said there were some fuel issues, but promised they flushed the lines and put new gas in. Anyways, the bug stalled and shut off. I got it home and jumped it again and it did start, but ran roughly and would not idle. Eventually it stopped starting all together. I did not hear any loud bangs or anything but it did backfire a little once.
So, to start I did recharge the battery, checked and replaced all the fuses to make sure there isn't an issue there. I tested the power to the coil and it seems ok. I also pulled the distributor cap off and there is spark with the key on and turning the motor by hand. I cannot tell if the rotor, cap or wires are old, but the coil does look to be pretty ancient. Havent checked the plugs yet. Should I pull and replace all these items just be sure everything is good and proceed to the fuel system? Or should I try some starter fluid to see if I can get it to at least start and try to run the old gas out of the system? The parts guy suggested to just replace the gas tank, lines and carburetor. Im sure its a good idea, but also not particularly cheap.
Thoughts on what direction I should head in?
Last edited by Sharp64 on Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5994
Location: Brooklyn
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Diagnosing Non-Starting issues. |
|
|
| Sharp64 wrote: |
| I tested the power to the coil and it seems ok. |
What do you mean it "seems ok"? You either have 6V to the coil or you don't.
| Quote: |
| Should I pull and replace all these items just be sure everything is good and proceed to the fuel system? |
No. You should diagnose the problem and fix it rather than attempting to throw parts at the problem and hope something works.
Now given the fact that the car has been sitting for a long time, you are going to need to go through the fuel system. You are almost certainly going to have to tear down and thoroughly clean the carburetor and you may also need to drain and flush the fuel tank. Remove the fuel gauge sending unit from the tank and look inside to see the condition of the interior of the tank. Gasoline slowly degrades into a varnish as it sits for long periods and it's likely you have this plugging up jets and drillings inside the carburetor.
You should not replace the carburetor with a new Chinese piece o' crap. You should tear down the current one and clean/inspect it. If throttle bushings are excessively worn you should have it rebuilt (there are members here who do great work) rather than buy a new one. Generally speaking with these cars you should make every effort to repair the original German equipment before replacing it with new parts, most of which are of inferior quality these days.
You MUST MUST MUST replace every piece of rubber fuel hose on that car or you are facing a serious fire risk.
You also MUST MUST MUST go through the brake system if the car has been sitting that long. Preferably before you worry about the motor, as what good is a running engine if you can't stop? Brake fluid must be changed every 2 years and the rubber hoses are suspect as well.
You should also take this opportunity to properly adjust the valves, then adjust the points, then adjust the timing (you can static time it to get it to a point where it will start and run then once you get it running you can time it with a strobe timing light).
I'm going to assume you have changed the oil already, but if you haven't and you don't know how old the old oil is, you should change it.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
By "ok" I mean it is getting current and reads in the 6v range. Might have to clean up the terminals a little, but it is getting power.
In regards to pulling things, much like the brake lines I figured there is no telling how old the wires, plugs, rotor, cap, etc are so might be worth changing them out for new units to make sure its all in good condition. No spark loss or anything.
I need to look at the carb to see if its original or not. I am assuming it is, but will have to check more thoroughly. Looking into the tank, the gasoline is definitely orangish. Trying to determine if its bad or not, but may just drain it to eliminate that possibility. Tank is fairly dented so eventually I will swap that out, but may hold off for the time being just to get it running.
As for brakes, it supposedly had them serviced recently and it did in fact stop very well. Only issue with that aspect is the brake lights are not working but I suspect it could possibly be the switch as I have seen a few thread on how they are often not primed properly when installed or cheap units that fail quickly. Looking up under the car, the switch looks very clean and shiny compared to everything else around it, so to me would indicate that it has been replaced recently. Either way, I agree they need to be working, but it also needs to be able to run, so that's a priority as well for me.
How does one know if the throttle bushings are bad? The parts guy mentioned about the lever that the throttle cable attached to and said something along the lines of "if there is any play there it needs to be replaced". There does seem to be a little wobble, but not sure what constitutes "play". I'm willing to try taking it apart and cleaning it. Should I attempt a rebuild or is that really for someone more experienced?
I did not change the oil yet as again, my focus was to try and get it running then service it and attempt to tune it.
No idea about static timing it. I did purchase the VW of Idiots book and guess I need to start in on it.
Last edited by Sharp64 on Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Just to clarify, I did go back out and do some more probing. There is 6v to the coil, more like 5.95 but assuming this is good enough? To the electric choke it looks like 5.5-5.8. I can pretty quickly and easily pull the terminals and clean these up if that might help? The carb is stamped "VW" and its a Solex. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5994
Location: Brooklyn
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sharp64 wrote: |
| By "ok" I mean it is getting current and reads in the 6v range. Might have to clean up the terminals a little, but it is getting power. |
OK so you're good there.
| Quote: |
In regards to pulling things, much like the brake lines I figured there is no telling how old the wires, plugs, rotor, cap, etc are so might be worth changing them out for new units to make sure its all in good condition. No spark loss or anything. |
Best to check the condition first and not replace it if it doesn't need replacing. The quality of the tune-up parts available now is often not so great, a lot of times you're better off running an old Bosch German distributor cap rather than a new replacement from AutoZone. Same is true of the points, the quality of the new stuff, even Bosch, is not so hot.
There isn't much that can go wrong with a cap or rotor, as long as the cap isn't cracked and the terminals are clean you can run it, same as the rotor. If the plug wires are hard and brittle you might consider replacement but make sure any new ones have the rubber air seals around the plug boots, they are critical for engine cooling.
You should check the condition of the points, sometimes they get pitted or grow a tit between the two contacts which needs to be filed down. Also the cam that the points ride on needs lubrication with Bosch distributor grease to keep the rubbing block from wearing down prematurely.
| Quote: |
I need to look at the carb to see if its original or not. I am assuming it is, but will have to check more thoroughly. Looking into the tank, the gasoline is definitely orangish. Trying to determine if its bad or not, but may just drain it to eliminate that possibility. Tank is fairly dented so eventually I will swap that out, but may hold off for the time being just to get it running. |
If the gas is orange that's a bad sign. Is it orange because the inside of the tank is rusty? I think you should definitely drain all the gas and replace with fresh gas - if the inside of the tank is rusty you may need to de-rust the tank, search on here - there are lots of people who have done it and posted about it.
| Quote: |
As for brakes, it supposedly had them serviced recently and it did in fact stop very well. Only issue with that aspect is the brake lights are not working but I suspect it could possibly be the switch as I have seen a few thread on how they are often not primed properly when installed or cheap units that fail quickly. Either way, I agree they need to be working, but it also needs to be able to run, so that's a priority as well for me. |
That's good, if brakes have been serviced recently that should save you some trouble though it's always good to verify. Brake lights are easy enough to troubleshoot, it's a simple circuit.
| Quote: |
How does one know if the throttle bushings are bad? The parts guy mentioned about the lever that the throttle cable attached to and said something along the lines of "if there is any play there it needs to be replaced". There does seem to be a little wobble, but not sure what constitutes "play". I'm willing to try taking it apart and cleaning it. Should I attempt a rebuild or is that really for someone more experienced? |
The parts guy is on the right track, if the throttle bushing is excessively worn it will cause a vacuum leak which will give you a hard time when carb tuning. It's not gonna make it not start, but it's something to be aware of down the road. You can take the carb apart, hit everything with carb cleaner, blow out the jets, put it all back together. It would be best if you had a carb gasket kit on hand when doing it so you can replace any bad gaskets. I suspect when you take it apart you will find clogged jets and gas varnish inside screwing things up. When carb is apart you can also take the opportunity to verify accelerator pump function and injection quantity as well as float bowl fuel level. Get the Bentley manual for all the specs and procedures if you don't have it yet.
You will not be able to replace the throttle bushing by yourself, a carb rebuilder or machinist will have to do that
| Quote: |
I did not change the oil yet as again, my focus was to try and get it running then service it and attempt to tune it. |
I would change oil before running it again, you don't know what kind of crap is in that oil and you don't want to circulate it through the engine if you don't have to. Oil is cheap.
| Quote: |
No idea about static timing it. I did purchase the VW of Idiots book and guess I need to start in on it. |
Idiot guide is good for starters but it is only a companion to the Bentley. Make sure you get the Bentley manual.
Yes you will need to learn how to do timing, that is one of the most basic and critical maintenance procedures you will have to do frequently on this car. Might as well learn now. One thing to know, you always set the points before setting the timing because changing the points gap changes the timing. The corollary to that is every time you change or adjust the points gap, you have to re-adjust the timing.
Also read up on valve adjustment, this is another critical VW maintenance procedure and needs to be checked at every oil change. You want to make sure that is set before attempting to get it running again.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
| They did recommend the Bentley manual. Stupid question, but since the engine is a 1300 and the car is a 64 pan with 63 body as far as I can tell, which manual should I get? They seem to be broken down from 61-65 and 66+. The 61-65 though says its for the 1200 motor though? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Looked into the gas tank further and the orange may be from surface rust on the bottom of the tank. I'm assuming this isn't a good thing? With it being dented as well, I think I might just go ahead and replace it with a new unit. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31362
Location: Hot Arizona
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yes, if the starter spins the engine at the right speed, then use aerosol starting fluid to isolate whether the issue is fuel related or spark related, and then logically troubleshoot.
Do not "just throw parts at it" !!!! Do not "just throw parts at it" !!!! Do not "just throw parts at it" !!!! Do not "just throw parts at it" !!!! Do not "just throw parts at it" !!!! Do not "just throw parts at it" !!!!
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Cusser wrote: |
Yes, if the starter spins the engine at the right speed, then use aerosol starting fluid to isolate whether the issue is fuel related or spark related, and then logically troubleshoot.
Do not "just throw parts at it" !!!! Do not "just throw parts at it" !!!! Do not "just throw parts at it" !!!! Do not "just throw parts at it" !!!! Do not "just throw parts at it" !!!! Do not "just throw parts at it" !!!! |
So what you're saying is I should throw parts at it? 
The Starter does spin, but right now only with a jump start. Part of the problem I think I have is that the generator may be dead/dying. When it first got here it started quickly with a jump and seemed to run. Rough, but ran. If you turned it off, it would need another jump but would run. For some reason it has stopped running completely and cant seem to figure out why. I am going to try starter fluid to see if I can at least get it running again and go from there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5994
Location: Brooklyn
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
My bet is that it will kick/run on starting fluid but die as soon as you stop supplying starter fluid. I think you're gonna find clogged up jets and passages in the carb screwing with fuel supply.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sjbartnik wrote: |
| My bet is that it will kick/run on starting fluid but die as soon as you stop supplying starter fluid. I think you're gonna find clogged up jets and passages in the carb screwing with fuel supply. |
At least if it starts and dies without the fluid it will somewhat narrow the issues down to fuel supply and I can start tearing things down and cleaning them right? I just need a starting point. I found something online about static timing it and I think it's good. At least close enough that it should be starting. I'll stop by the parts store, get some carb cleaner and starter fluid and go from there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5994
Location: Brooklyn
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Sharp64 wrote: |
At least if it starts and dies without the fluid it will somewhat narrow the issues down to fuel supply and I can start tearing things down and cleaning them right? I just need a starting point. I found something online about static timing it and I think it's good. At least close enough that it should be starting. I'll stop by the parts store, get some carb cleaner and starter fluid and go from there. |
Indeed. The Idiot book you have also has a good primer on static timing if I'm not mistaken. And of course there are a ton of posts on this site describing how to do it. Ask questions if you run into trouble. Again note that you set the points BEFORE setting the timing. Changing the points gap changes the timing. Very important thing to know and understand.
Oh and change the damn oil! 
You're gonna be at the store anyway
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
grandpa pete
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2008
Posts: 6426
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
grandpa pete
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2008
Posts: 6426
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| sjbartnik wrote: |
Indeed. The Idiot book you have also has a good primer on static timing if I'm not mistaken. And of course there are a ton of posts on this site describing how to do it. Ask questions if you run into trouble. Again note that you set the points BEFORE setting the timing. Changing the points gap changes the timing. Very important thing to know and understand.
Oh and change the damn oil!
You're gonna be at the store anyway |
Of course I went to the parts store to get the precious oil and forgot the damn gapping tool. Ugh. And of course they didn't have the stupid gasket either so I have to head elsewhere. May just have to start that thing with dirty oil!!!
Also anyone know where to get a paperback edition of the Bentley manual? Choking a bit on coming off $120 for the hardback. Found one for $89 but then they were trying to charge $25 for shipping. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31362
Location: Hot Arizona
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ok, so I have done the vast majority of my "honey do" list, gotten some other issues squared away and have at least a solid day this upcoming weekend to fiddle with the Bug. I made sure there is spark, did the static timing and it seems to be at least close enough to start. I did not check the valves yet, but again, think I am close enough to at least get it to start so that I can make sure something more serious isn't wrong. My hopes are that the biggest issue at this point is bad/old gas dirty/clogged carb. My plan of action:
1. Change the oil as to make sure there isn't a bunch or metal/crap in the case. Have new gaskets to so I can remove and clean the screen.
2. Pull the gas tank, drain, and use muriatic acid to clean the inside of the tank. Blow out the fuel lines (possibly replace).
3. Pull carb, clean thoroughly with carb cleaner, make sure any gas in the lines in the engine compartment are drained.
4. Reassemble, fill with new, fresh high octane gas and use starter fluid if necessary to try and get it started.
Anything I am missing?
This also might be a very stupid, noobish question, but how to I confirm if its getting gas? I know I smell it when I open up the engine lid, but short of pouring gas into the top of the carb, how do I ensure the fuel pump is working? With that said, do I need to possibly clean the fuel pump to make sure its not clogged? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5994
Location: Brooklyn
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Sharp64 wrote: |
1. Change the oil as to make sure there isn't a bunch or metal/crap in the case. Have new gaskets to so I can remove and clean the screen. |
Definitely do that.
| Quote: |
4. Reassemble, fill with new, fresh high octane gas and use starter fluid if necessary to try and get it started. |
It is unnecessary to use high-octane gas in a STOCK VW engine. The compression ratio is low enough to run fine on 87. However if you experience any pinging then you either need to retard your timing a bit or go to a higher octane gas. Bad carbon deposits in the cylinders can increase the engine's octane requirement.
| Quote: |
This also might be a very stupid, noobish question, but how to I confirm if its getting gas? I know I smell it when I open up the engine lid, but short of pouring gas into the top of the carb, how do I ensure the fuel pump is working? With that said, do I need to possibly clean the fuel pump to make sure its not clogged? |
Show a pic of your fuel pump. Some of them can be disassembled but the common replacement ones these days cannot be. If it can be disassembled there is usually a filter screen inside that can be cleaned.
Be aware that if you are starting from a completely dry fuel system, you will probably have to prime the pump in order to get it to start pumping and sucking fuel in from the tank. On the old ones that can be disassembled you can open the top and pour some gas in. Not sure the best procedure for the later style pumps.
Easiest way to see if the pump is working is to take the hose from the pump that goes to the carb, unhook it from the carb and direct it into a suitable container while someone cranks the engine. If it's pumping or not, you'll know pretty quick.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
Ok. Only reason I mentioned using higher than 87 was due to it being very stock and originally designed for running on something leaded and higher octane. Just to be sure I might run it on higher the first time and then try reducing it to see if I get knocks or as you say fiddle with the timing. Let me get a pic of the fuel pump. Disregard the fuel filter being where it is. I will be changing that once its running. That and some rewiring.
Im assuming taking the screw off the top will access the screen you mentioned? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| For kicks and giggles and because I'm impatient.. I pushed it outside, sprayed some starter fluid in the carburetor and it cranks right up! Wont idle and definitely is running a bit rough. So this definitely is pointing to bad gas being the most likely culprit correct? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
