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Jon Schmid
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Joined: May 29, 2012
Posts: 2038
Location: Southern California
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 Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:44 am Post subject: Diagnosing Non-Starting issues. |
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| I would not recommend using starter fluid. Pull the air cleaner and pour a tablespoon of good gas down the carb. |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
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Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Runs but won't idle, assuming ignition system and mechanical condition are all in order, would tend to suggest problems in the carb pilot circuit, perhaps jets or passageways clogged with old varnished gas or other schmutz. I'll be interested to see what you find when you pull and disassemble the carb.
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1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650 |
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Cusser
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Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31360
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| Sharp64 wrote: |
| For kicks and giggles and because I'm impatient.. I pushed it outside, sprayed some starter fluid in the carburetor and it cranks right up! Wont idle and definitely is running a bit rough. So this definitely is pointing to bad gas being the most likely culprit correct? |
No, but indicates that the issue is fuel related, could be delivery or carb issue.
| Jon Schmid wrote: |
| I would not recommend using starter fluid. Pull the air cleaner and pour a tablespoon of good gas down the carb. |
I do recommend aerosol starting fluid, like Sharp used. Sounds to me that you isolated the issue to a fuel related issue, and not a spark-related issue, that's always the first step to troubleshoot if the engine spins OK with the starter.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Sharp64
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Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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The only reason I was using starter fluid was to make sure that it does still actually start and run.
I should elaborate a little on my thinking its potentially the gas. I know the car had not been registered or driven regularly for many years. The plates on it had a last registration day of 85 so it has been at least that long since anyone has driven it on the road (legally). The individual I purchased it from said that it had been running at one point and that the carburetor and fuel system had been gone through within the past few years. He did make the comment in a conversation we had at one point that the gas in the car wasn't fresh and made mention of it being Texas and 10% ethanol blah blah blah. The point being, it did hear it running at one point while he had it. He had to get it running to get onto the truck, but that was over a month ago at this point. So the gas is at least a month old and my guess is quite a bit older as he mentioned it being possibly old when he had it. Looking in the gas tank I see some surface rust (another possible reason to drain and clean the tank). Short of running a hose from a bucket of gas to the fuel pump is there any other way of routing around the gas tank to see if that's the possible issue?
And when I say it doesn't idle, it also doesn't run great. I can keep it running but it is a chore. I have to constantly work the gas pedal and it doesn't seem to have much power. As in when I rev the engine a little higher it is spongy feeling and not very responsive. When I took it out on the street a few weeks ago it was very hard to keep it going and it had very little acceleration. Kind of spit and sputtered a bit. Guess that could also be from a dirty carb? I would hate to waste the gas in it, but also don't want to go through the effort of cleaning the carb just to have it get clogged up again with crappy gas.
Thoughts? |
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Sharp64
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Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| sjbartnik wrote: |
| Runs but won't idle, assuming ignition system and mechanical condition are all in order, would tend to suggest problems in the carb pilot circuit, perhaps jets or passageways clogged with old varnished gas or other schmutz. I'll be interested to see what you find when you pull and disassemble the carb. |
What would I look for in the ignition system? It is requiring a jump start right now which I cant determine if that is from the battery just not having a lot of oomph due to not being driven or if there is a problem with the generator recharging it? Trying to get the engine running so I can start testing generator output. |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
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Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Sharp64 wrote: |
And when I say it doesn't idle, it also doesn't run great. I can keep it running but it is a chore. I have to constantly work the gas pedal and it doesn't seem to have much power. As in when I rev the engine a little higher it is spongy feeling and not very responsive. When I took it out on the street a few weeks ago it was very hard to keep it going and it had very little acceleration. Kind of spit and sputtered a bit. Guess that could also be from a dirty carb? I would hate to waste the gas in it, but also don't want to go through the effort of cleaning the carb just to have it get clogged up again with crappy gas.
Thoughts? |
There are a lot of things besides old/bad gas that can make it run like this. That's why you have to rule out as many factors as possible.
1) Valve adjustment - you could have sticking valves, valves being held open when they're supposed to be closed, valves not opening - this would cause all kinds of weird crap, compression issues, hard starting, bad running, it would change the vacuum signature of the engine messing with your timing advance, etc.
2) Points could have wrong gap, ignition timing could be set wrong, this could cause same crap.
3) Distributor advance diaphragm could be broken, advance plate could be stuck, etc. which would cause same issues.
4) you could have vacuum leaks at carb, at manifold, at heads, all that could cause problems.
5) carb could simply be improperly adjusted or tuned, maybe accelerator pump diaphragm is torn, maybe jets are clogged, maybe passages are clogged, maybe choke isn't set right, etc etc.
6) you could have any combination of the above problems
You're working with unknown quantities here so you need to methodically go through things and rule out stuff as much as possible. You always go mechanical condition first (valves, compression, etc), then ignition (points, plug gaps, timing, advance), then you start messing with the carb. You don't want to tune the carb if the other stuff is wrong because then you'll still have to go back and fix the other stuff anyway and that will likely cause you to have to go back and re-tune the carb properly because you tuned it improperly to make up for other fucked-up stuff.
Don't feel too bad about wasting the gas, gas is cheap. You can run a hose to the fuel pump intake from a gas can with good fresh gas if you want to test your bad gas theory. I don't think it's going to be that simple though.
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Sharp64
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Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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With all of that said though, what about the fact that it will start up with starter fluid? Doesn't this point to fuel delivery as mentioned above? With all of that said above its starting to sound a little daunting and maybe I really need to get someone to get it back to square one for me first?
I pulled the points and regapped them. The seemed smooth, but there was some "burn" marks on them. When fully open, they were a bit too close. |
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Sharp64
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2015 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| sjbartnik wrote: |
Oh and change the damn oil! 
You're gonna be at the store anyway |
Ok.... so if youre a drinking man, I owe you a beer. If not, I owe you some sort of hot/cold beverage if we every meet. Changed the oil and OMFG! As mentioned, its been a loooong time since I changed the oil in a bug so I took out the center drain plug and... nada. It starts barely dripping. Hmmm. Went ahead and started taking the filter plate off and it started dripping more. Finally it all came out along with a crap ton of sludge. About the consistency of heavy grease. Pulled the screen and it was so freaking clogged that I had so spray it with carb cleaner to get it all clean. Ugh.
Checked the points and they were off. I went through the static timing guide I found and it said to use a light. I only have a test meter and it was hard to figure out when it was registering and not. Timed it by watching the spark and stopped as soon as I saw it. Moved the distributor accordingly and got it so that it sparks consistently on the notch to the right of TDC which if its the correct pulley I believe should be correct? I turned it back several times and stopped as soon as I saw spark and each time it was dead nuts on. Tightened it up. So the timing should be correct right? Even though the notch on the rotor isn't lining up with the notch on the distributor? |
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sjbartnik
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| Sharp64 wrote: |
Ok.... so if youre a drinking man, |
I am!
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Hmmm. Went ahead and started taking the filter plate off and it started dripping more. Finally it all came out along with a crap ton of sludge. About the consistency of heavy grease. Pulled the screen and it was so freaking clogged that I had so spray it with carb cleaner to get it all clean. Ugh. |
Yeah so this is why I was insisting you change your oil first. With a car that's been sitting you never know what you're gonna find in there. Based on what you described above, when you do get it running I would run it and get the oil warmed up then change it again to flush out as much of that crap as possible.
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Checked the points and they were off. I went through the static timing guide I found and it said to use a light. I only have a test meter and it was hard to figure out when it was registering and not. Timed it by watching the spark and stopped as soon as I saw it. Moved the distributor accordingly and got it so that it sparks consistently on the notch to the right of TDC which if its the correct pulley I believe should be correct? I turned it back several times and stopped as soon as I saw spark and each time it was dead nuts on. Tightened it up. So the timing should be correct right? Even though the notch on the rotor isn't lining up with the notch on the distributor? |
Sounds good. The notch on the distributor is for when #1 is at TDC. So when you have it timed correctly via the notch on the pulley lining up with the seam on the crankcase, the rotor should be pointing somewhere slightly to the left of the notch in the distributor, because the engine (and distributor) rotates clockwise and you are timing the spark to occur a few degrees of rotation BEFORE TDC (BTDC).
So just to verify your procedure, you crank the engine over by hand until the notch on the pulley is in line with the seam in the crankcase and the rotor is pointing to #1 (or a little before as discussed above, you're only making sure it's not pointing to #3 basically). Then you hook up your test light or meter, loosen the distributor clamp nut, and turn on the ignition. You rotate the distributor clockwise until the light goes out, then you slowly rotate the distributor counterclockwise until the light comes on. Then you lock down the clamp nut. Spin the engine backward by 180 degrees or so, then spin it clockwise slowly until your test light comes on. When your test light comes on, the notch in the crank pulley should be lined up with the seam in the crankcase. If so, you timed it right.
You can use a test light or a meter to do static timing, when using a meter you just set it for DC volts on the 20V scale and turn the engine slowly while you keep an eye on the meter. When the points open the meter reading will jump from 0 to 12V and that's when you're getting your spark. The test light does the same thing it's just that the 12V lights up a light bulb instead of showing on the display of a meter. I don't have a test light rig so I just use a digital meter for doing my static timing.
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
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Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Sharp64 wrote: |
| With all of that said though, what about the fact that it will start up with starter fluid? Doesn't this point to fuel delivery as mentioned above? With all of that said above its starting to sound a little daunting and maybe I really need to get someone to get it back to square one for me first? |
It definitely points to the *possibility* of a fuel delivery issue but you'd be surprised how many ignition system issues can mimic the symptoms of fuel delivery issues. The fact that it will start on starting fluid shows you're getting spark to the cylinders but that doesn't mean it's at the right time and that can cause all sorts of driveability issues.
| Quote: |
I pulled the points and regapped them. The seemed smooth, but there was some "burn" marks on them. When fully open, they were a bit too close. |
Yeah you can get arcing across the points if they don't open far enough (and weak spark/misfires/etc as a result). Generally the surfaces of the points can be cleaned with some cardboard (like a matchbook cover). If you look at the points and the contacts are heavily pitted that would indicate severe arcing across the points and can indicate a bad condenser, which is supposed to prevent that sort of thing.
Make sure you lubricate the cam that the points rubbing block rides on with distributor grease (use the special stuff like Bosch or Mallory). Also while you're in there pull the rotor off and put a couple drops of motor oil on the felt pad in the center of the hollow distributor shaft.
Just remember that if you make any further adjustments to the points, you will have to re-do the static timing procedure.
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Sharp64
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Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| It's still running 6v, but I get what you're saying. Will adjusting it like I have by watching for the spark work as well? When I tried using the meter it always registered some current. Granted, it was very low like .08 or so but it never fully read 0. Also the one I have doesn't have clips, only probes so it's difficult to use. I figured if I was stopping as soon as I saw spark it and it was in the right spot (right notch from TDC) I should be good? |
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sjbartnik
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| Sharp64 wrote: |
| It's still running 6v, but I get what you're saying. Will adjusting it like I have by watching for the spark work as well? When I tried using the meter it always registered some current. Granted, it was very low like .08 or so but it never fully read 0. Also the one I have doesn't have clips, only probes so it's difficult to use. I figured if I was stopping as soon as I saw spark it and it was in the right spot (right notch from TDC) I should be good? |
Sorry forgot the 6v bit but yeah you got the idea. Yes watching for spark works just as well.
Yes I have noticed the same thing when doing it with the meter, it will show ~1v or so when points are closed then jump to full battery voltage when points open. But my meter has alligator clips so that makes it a little easier to work with. Sounds like you're good.
The only question is whether you have the stock pulley and what those notches represent in terms of degrees BTDC. How many notches do you have? I think there's a reference on here somewhere of all the different pulleys through the years.
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Abscate
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 8:54 am Post subject: |
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That will be close enought to get her running
On starter fluid, your use is perfect for diagnosing a fuel delivery problem (which can be anywhere in the fuel system)
Now put the starter fluid away - you need to fix the problem so that the motor starts on its own.
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Sharp64
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| With the points and timing set and the oil changed I am going to move on to draining the fuel system, cleaning the inside of the tank, cleaning the carb and hopefully attacking adjusting the valves this weekend. I'm hoping at that point it may run consistently. Also replacing the tube ends that connect the vacuum to the carb. Noticed they were very loose last night. Assuming that's not a good thing? |
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sjbartnik
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Sharp64 wrote: |
| With the points and timing set and the oil changed I am going to move on to draining the fuel system, cleaning the inside of the tank, cleaning the carb and hopefully attacking adjusting the valves this weekend. I'm hoping at that point it may run consistently. Also replacing the tube ends that connect the vacuum to the carb. Noticed they were very loose last night. Assuming that's not a good thing? |
Yes that's not a good thing, creates a vacuum leak and also can reduce the effectiveness of the vacuum advance mechanism in the distributor.
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Sharp64
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Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| I figured as much. The one attached to the vacuum actually popped off just by me hitting it when I was loosening the distributor clamp bolt. Picked us some today and replacing it. |
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Sharp64
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Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Well, thinking I may have just screwed the pooch... Went to adjust the valves. Right side 1 and 4 went very well. Took awhile, but went well. Went to left side and I think the #2 intake valve is stuck? I loosened the nut backed the adjuster out and the arm does not move at all. I double checked to make sure I was on the right cylinder and Its correct. Exhaust was fine. Tried searching this topic and none of it looks like good news....
Going to go ahead and adjust the exhaust and move onto #3. Is there any sort of quick fix on this or am I looking at most likely something serious? |
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Cusser
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Sharp64 wrote: |
| Went to adjust the valves. Right side 1 and 4 went very well. ....Went to left side and I think the #2 intake valve is stuck? |
Sharp - you better get sharper, and fast !!! Right side of engine is #1 and #2 (#1 towards front of VW). Left side of engine is #3 and #4, #3 towards front of VW.
| Sharp64 wrote: |
| Is there any sort of quick fix on this or am I looking at most likely something serious? |
Quickest 1st step below; not my diagram, but it is correct.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Sharp64
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| My bad. #4. Either way, it's stuck. |
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sjbartnik
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:59 am Post subject: |
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are you saying the rocker arm is seized on the shaft? Meaning are you absolutely 100% sure you were on TDC for the COMPRESSION stroke for #4 (i.e. rotor would be pointing 90 degrees to the right of the notch for #1 assuming your distributor is installed correctly)?
When you backed off the adjusting screw was there clearance between the tip of the adjuster and the valve stem? But the rocker arm does not move on the shaft?
Or are you saying that you back the adjuster all the way off but there's still no clearance between valve stem and adjuster? Remove rocker arm, put a straight edge across the valves, they should all 4 be in line. If this particular valve sticks out farther than the other ones, yeah that's not good.
You can remove the rocker arm easily enough to see what's up. Might also check for a bent pushrod when you have the rocker arm out.
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